Global supermarkets selling shrimp peeled by slaves

a reply to: network dude


Ummm...thank you for reminding me of what was already extensively covered in pages 1...2...and 3...

It's only poor form IYHO...because you'd rather not think about it or deal with those thoughts once you have them...therefore you label it and package it away in some safe spot...then go on about your business...

It's all good...if your so uncomfortable by how all of this makes you feel then I'd say job well done...

Oh BTW...the thread title is the title of the AP article that I also extensively referenced and sourced...as per TOS...
Just in case you forgot to click the link and actually read the story...




YouSir

a reply to: network dude

Ummm...BTW you are involved...UNLESS you can categorically state that you never purchase anything that may have passed through the hands of slave labor...

Didn't think so...

I'm only too happy to associate myself fully on the side of those who abhor the practice of using slaves to create their products...therefore why wouldn't I welcome having such out there on the big screen for all the world to see...

At least I didn't try to excuse away my position as poor form...IMHO...of course




YouSir

a reply to: Aazadan

And even the US when we outlawed slavery, we left it in place for prisoners.

Slavery? Really? I'm assuming you mean state pens, and the like? Ummm...no. You're just a tad bit mistaken. Various prison reform have, for the most part, taken care of the abuses of the past. Issues do indeed still arise from time to time, but they are the aberration, not the usual.

These days prisoners are forced to work under threat of torture making a lot of products...

Again... Just a tad bit short of the mark. Convicts working in prison industries are paid...not much, true enough...but they are, after all, convicts. Under threat of torture? Spare me. There is not the slightest hint of truth to that. You, apparently, missed the whole prison reform thing during the latter half of the twentieth century...convicts have rights to all manner of things, including the hearing of grievances by the court.

Slavery? That implies that they don't have protections under statutes and law. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

a reply to: YouSir

What are we supposed to do ... invade Thailand?

originally posted by: ketsuko
What are we supposed to do ... invade Thailand?

With our current rules of engagement the lady boys will kick our asses.

a reply to: ketsuko


Ummm...come on Ketsuku...you're a good deal more intelligent than that...You have a finely tuned intelligence...much honed by your verbal sparring here in the ATS octagon...

How about...

every company that uses slavery to produce a product should be shut down...The money from the sale of such or the company assets should be sold or transferred to those kept as slaves... THAT my friend might be the only way to stem such from happening... If the company responsible is broken up..sold or transferred in such a fashion...and those responsible imprisoned...perhaps instead of making license plates they might make those chocolates or clothes you spoke about...as they served their sentence... Who knows...it just might deter the practice...

Rework the suggestions...tweak them...mix them all up...hand toss them...I don't know...
What do you suggest...?




YouSir

a reply to: YouSir

Thing is that those are Thai companies engaged in it. It's a problem for Thailand to clean up because that's where the businesses using the slavery are based. Every other business is just up the supply chain.

a reply to: YouSir
They did a social experiment in an attempt to answer that question.

a reply to: ketsuko

Ummm...up the supply chain profiting from slavery...I get it...really I do...I also get that without those up the supply chain profiteers...there wouldn't be quite the issue...at least in terms of scope...it's like human trafficking in other areas....if the buyers were shut down completely...then the problem would virtually go away...

Nothing doing up to this point has worked...so disenfranchise the entire supply chain...rather than keep such a repugnant practice in full bloom...simply because there's an economic niche for these products to fill as they help fund the machine...




YouSir

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn


Ummm...WOW...what a beautiful concept...if given the choice people will select a better alternative...if you put a real face on this it's amazing how humanizing their reactions were...

Thank you...I was wondering if I was beating a dead horse trying to get my point across...

See...and no one was nuked or otherwise harmed...they...GOT IT...

WOW...




YouSir

a reply to: YouSir

I don't disagree with anything you are saying. I think on many levels and in many ways I understand what you are saying. At the risk of sounding like a fill-in-the-blank, I am one of those people that despite any good intentions I may have, feel there is very little I can do about it.

I think, maybe, the best way to describe how I feel about this is to describe how I felt during my younger, vegetarian years. During my late teens/early twenties I was a vegetarian. It was not at all for health reasons. It was exclusively because I felt horrible when I thought about the plight of animals. To be candid, not eating meat was probably the easiest part of being a vegetarian. However, as I learned more and more about how many animal parts end up in other products, as well as how many seemingly animal friendly companies were owned by larger not-so-animal-friendly companies, I realized it was essentially a lost cause.
(Disclaimer: Although I am no longer a vegetarian I still commend those who are and still feel guilty for being something of a hypocrite for eating meat despite my feelings and thoughts against it).

Perhaps more closely (or slightly) related to the topic at hand, I can't help but think of the local hardware store that is long gone. Like many towns, we used to have a few "mom and pop" hardware stores that sold tools as well as repaired screens and lawnmowers and would take the time to provide guidance on DIY projects and repairs. Then came Home Depot. While I do appreciate the great prices that Home Depot provides, I resisted purchasing products there because even though they treat their employees well (relative to other big box stores) I knew they were a chain and did not take care of their employees nor the community the way the last remaining "mom and pop" hardware store did. Although I knew it was a lost cause, and despite my better judgment, and despite the fact that I didn't have much "disposable income," I would continue to purchase all my hardware and tools from the local shop at higher prices. As I mentioned, that shop is long gone now.
(Disclaimer: Beyond all the "help the little guy" reasons for wanting that store to survive, I've always been saddened that my son will never know the joy of going to the hardware store with me on random Saturday mornings to pick up supplies for whatever project we'd be working on. He will only ever know the big box store).
(Disclaimer 2: I understand that the "mom and pop" shop sold the same foreign made products as Home Depot)

I guess the aforementioned describes how I feel about the slave-shrimp issue and all those like it. While I, like I believe many others, want to "do something".... Until something actionable comes along (outside of changing hearts and minds one at a time) I have to play this game and do the best that I can for my family within the confines of it's rules.

a reply to: YouSir

OK, so some of that stuff is poorly labeled and documented because the country it comes out of knows its not in the interests of its economy to keep track of those things for this reason among others. So you're going to liquidate and punish a business for not knowing exactly where and how its goods are sourced.

Wouldn't it be better to embargo Thailand?

a reply to: seagull

Convicts working in prison industries are paid...not much, true enough...but they are, after all, convicts.

Forced labor is still slavery even if someone gets paid. I love the way you describe $5 a day as simply 'not much'.

Many slaves were paid overtime

When I first read that slaves were paid overtime, I was convinced I had read that wrong. Since a master could whip a slave to make him work, why would he pay them instead? If the planter was going to pay his workers, why did he need slaves?

Slaves leased by their owners were more often paid a bonus or overtime. Since someone who leased a slave was liable if the slave was killed or injured, whippings were (somewhat) limited. But, owners often paid their own slaves overtime, suggesting that some owners understood that rewards motivated their slaves better than punishment.

www.thefacultylounge.org...

Slavery? That implies that they don't have protections under statutes and law. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

No it doesnt:

By custom and law, slaves were not required to work on Sunday. If slaves worked for their owner or for someone else, they would be paid.

Sounds like protections under statutes and law to me.

America couldn't have been built without exploiting slaves, its amazing they still want to justify or deny a modernized version of the practice even today.

a reply to: ketsuko


Ummm...Just like Apple had no idea that it's i-phones were being assembled by child labor...right...silly me...If the Associated Press can determine where all of those shrimp from only one company ended up and which retail chains were the end point of sale then I'm sure the government might be able to figure it out...or the UN...or the corporations that end point purchase these whatevers made by slavery...

Don't you think that it might behoove the business to know exactly how and where the products they sell have been sourced and acquired...? I think it would be a plus on the advertising and sale side for a company to claim and ensure that none of it's products are produced through human trafficked slavery...

Obviously there isn't enough incentive within the industries to effect the change without threat of forfeiture and auction of assets...How many of these would you think it would take in order for companies to police their own purchasing habits...

Jeeze Ketsuko...I thought you were against the "too big to fail" philosophy...and this has to do with human life and justice...not just banks and printing presses...





YouSir

originally posted by: YouSir
a reply to: Aazadan


Ummm...hello Aazadan...Your absolutely correct...I can't fault you for anything you've stated here...

I find it all sad...all of it...every instance...I think however that the fault might lie at the feet of consumerism...
Not only there though...but at the feet of governments and especially at the feet of the corporations and their shareholders...
I think that this headlong advance toward globalization is the major engine that uses up the fringe...that grinds these people under it's heel...that does not care one whit for the means as long as the end goal is realized...

It all comes back to justification...on a global scale...on a regional scale...in a corporate sense...and individually...

Sweep it all away under the hem of the carpet...Who really gives a crap about that child three countries over...as long as we get to sip our wine and fork another shrimp into our mouths as we fill the air with...small talk...

YouSir

To an extent it can be fixed. If economies of differing status don't trade with each other we can remove a large part of it because the wealthy countries can't exploit the poor countries. But that wouldn't wholly fix the problem, would it be any more morally right to cut poor countries off from trade and prevent any wealth from flowing there to any of the people? Lets take the case of the shrimp farmers, because of their labor practices a few are lifted out of poverty even though the majority of people still suffer. Would things be any better if we were giving no one in those countries money and everyone suffers?

These are questions I can't answer.

originally posted by: seagull
Again... Just a tad bit short of the mark. Convicts working in prison industries are paid...not much, true enough...but they are, after all, convicts. Under threat of torture? Spare me. There is not the slightest hint of truth to that. You, apparently, missed the whole prison reform thing during the latter half of the twentieth century...convicts have rights to all manner of things, including the hearing of grievances by the court.

Slavery? That implies that they don't have protections under statutes and law. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

So you deny that solitary confinement is torture? There are many prisons where you can either work or go into solitary.

a reply to: PeterMcFly

Very interesting and makes perfect sense

a reply to: YouSir

I wouldn't have even posted, but your pompous arrogant tone made me think of this:



IMHO

a reply to: YouSir

All right, so the people you need to crusade against the ones doing this, not us.

Move to Thailand and start the labor movement.

a reply to: ketsuko


Ummm...ahhh...really struck a nerve there...hmmm...?
So what your stating is that you would prefer to not consider your place in the chain that binds just about everything you purchase that's imported...to modern slavery...

That's fine with me...I wasn't trying to change your mind...nor can anything I say cause you to feel anything...Rather...it's how you process whatever information that's presented to you that causes you to react as you did...

Let me get this straight...Your internalized guilt makes you feel uncomfortable...You were much happier not considering that some child slaves hand may have processed or assembled your latest gadget or article of fashion...
Your use of the word's...crusade...us...and move...certainly point to that discomfort...They don't attempt to distance me in any way...they only speak to distancing yourself from that part of you that recognizes the truth of what I've presented here

Why on earth Ketsuko would you think that because I read a story online and chose to share it here that it equated...crusade...?
Can we all now incorrectly assume that every thread you post is also a crusade as well...?

I'm not going to apologize to you because you now feel uncomfortable...simply because now you look at the things you surround yourself with in a different light...It's good to feel discomfort about injustice...it means you just might in fact share some of that same humanity with those held in bondage...or enslaved...that you and all the rest of that...US...you spoke about enjoy the end product of that slavery...

Hard pill to swallow...isn't it...






YouSir