How I feel about guns. A friendly discourse.

A good day to those who wish to receive it here on ATS a community of friends.

On Thread Placement

I place this thread here, because I consider any discussion about the morality surrounding guns to be a social issue and a source of civil unrest. I looked at the weaponry forum, but that seemed to me more concerned with the objective facts and current developments surrounding weaponry than any moral debate. I thought about placing this in the rant section, but honestly, I am neither angry nor deeply impassioned about the subject. I simply have some personal ideas and feelings about it. Which I would like to share and discuss, but if it needs to be moved. By all means and an apology to the hard working moderators / administrators here on ATS for my ignorance.

Baclground

I was born and currently living in the European nation called the Netherlands. As far as I can tel we have pretty strict gun laws here. ( Law weapons and munitions. ) To be brief no civilian can own a gun just because they want to protect themselves and their homes. The government is pretty honest about why they have this law. Primarily it exists to ensure the safety and stability of the government itself. Secondly it exists to reduce violent crime among the general population.

My View

Some of the main reasons why I believe this is not a social issue in our country is because........

A Our population never considered owning a gun a right or even a privilege.
B The nation is wealthy enough and lacks inequality enough to not make people want to own a gun.
C People feel Safe with gun laws in place.

The idea of having the right to own a gun for the sake of protecting yourself against the government or even to use them to overthrow
the government in cases of emergency are considered laughable in the eyes of most Dutch nationals. People find it very understandable that the government would like to protect itself against such possibilities. The idea is that if it ever gets so bad that a majority of the population would be desperate enough to want to violently overthrow the government. The law will not be able to prevent people from gaining access to large amounts of weaponry. Where there is a will there is a way mentality.

Furthermore the argument that gun ownership by a large portion of the population would deter the government from infringing on the rights of citizens is also highly doubted. Reason being that there is simply not anything so damaging to the personal integrity of an individual to want to fight the government in that way, if their was..... the people in charge would be crazy enough to have no qualms with exterminating large amounts of opposition forces by using overwhelming force. On top of that a prolonged civil war could be much more damaging to the infra structure and long term well being of the nation than a well planned insurgency or resistance.

We have faith in our military coalitions to not feel the need to individually want to deal with the possibility of external invasion. So again no need for guns.

The dutch have a reputation of liking to solve a problem through either: Diplomacy, Economics or Ressitance / Insurgency.
This is I believe rooted in a very high held Ideal by our populace that...... using common sense and / or grounded thinking to survive and thrive is the best way to go to obtain long term security and prosperity. Compared to a never surrender scorched earth policy mindset.

What is liberty and justice when the land is in tatters and ruins.

In the eyes of some this makes us look weak, lacking integrity, blowing with the strongest wind. I would disagree. We do have morals and principles as a people, but simply like to take our time working a problem until an opportunity arises. We are Opportunists .

I am proud to be Dutch, but I digress.

Now the only people that use guns in our country are the big shot criminals that see themselves above the law to begin with and once these criminals are caught they are put away for a long long time. This lack of blur in gun usage makes people here feel exceedingly safe. Oh we have about 70.000 licensed guns owners here.

They are game hunters. Sports marksmen and Screened collectors. We do not seem to have much problems with them.

Statistically speaking there is not much need for a gun over here. I personally believe a gun gives a sense of power. The ability to force someone to do something or other. I think a whole lot of domestic violence would be a lot worse over here if everyone had a gun in the closet.
For some reason or other a kitchen utility like a knife just does not convey the same kind of control and is more messy than most want to know or experience. Hence the lack of problems on that front.

So...... to the United States Citizenry. I know gun ownership is part of your culture and history. I do not even feel that your guns should be taken away from you, despite everything I have written above. Simply, because we are a different people with different mentality. It is even possible that if the dutch would be given guns legally en mass... That we as a people would react quite immaturely compared to you folks who are so accustomed and well educated in the use and etiquette of guns.

But......

There must be a way to stop these string of senseless mass shootings your country is dealing with right now and I find gun control to some extent not a very high price to pay to safe future innocent lives, but I am open for different ideas and solutions.

These are my thoughts.

I like to hear your ideas and feelings about the subject ATS. I am here to learn.

If this work is seen as an incohesive ramble. Again my apologies I wrote it on the fly.

Kind Regards.

Gamlegamle. ( no I am not danish, I know it means Old old. )

a reply to: GamleGamle

WooHoo this ought to be a good one. Firstly, you don't know how decent you really are, considering that you don't think guns should be taken away from us. You see, if we knew we had such fervent backers such as yourself, we wouldn't need guns! Our guns aren't "taken" away, because they cannot be taken away! You prefer to deal with problems through diplomacy and perseverance. We deal with problems using our spines. Talk friend, but it's one of those enigmas you never forget and by it's name -you never solve. As soon as us ignant muricans are shown a gun that perpetrates a shooting, on it's own, I will guarantee those things will go bye-bye. I know, it's the same old story, sorry.

a reply to: donktheclown

( Rasps throat. ). A WooHoo to you to Sir.

I do not really get what you are saying. Could you clarify a bit more?

Oh by the way this thread is not meant to solve anything. Its all an exercise of the mind. What is said on a forum does little to change anything, until it leads someone to action.

That is also one of the things I do not really understand. American guns can not actually be taken away without severe repercussions. So why are people so fearful of that outcome? That is actually a rhetorical question. I can think of some reasons.

Kind Regards.

a reply to: GamleGamle

People find it very understandable that the government would like to protect itself against such possibilities. The idea is that if it ever gets so bad that a majority of the population would be desperate enough to want to violently overthrow the government. The law will not be able to prevent people from gaining access to large amounts of weaponry. Where there is a will there is a way mentality.

I am from a country that has recently emerged from thirty years of civil war and popular revolt. Speaking from bitter experience, I should like to make two points.

1. You are absolutely right that where there is a will there is always a way when it comes to guns and other lethal weaponry. You don't need constitutionally guaranteed rights to own guns. They are utterly irrelevant to the issue.
   
   
2. Even with weapons widely available to everybody, it is almost impossible for people to overthrow the State unless a sizeable majority of citizens wish for that to happen; and when such a majority exists, as it did in the countries of Eastern Europe in the mid-1980s, guns are not required.

From these two facts alone, it is evident that a constitutional guarantee of the citizens' right to carry arms is thoroughly absurd — an anachronism from the age of muzzle-loading rifles. It offers no protection against tyrannical governments, it just guarantees that in any contest between private individuals or between individuals and the state, lethal violence is an easy recourse for either side to take.

hmmmmmmm

Thank you for the thread OP..

Now I invite to to do the following:

1) Have a Constitution like ours
2) Import all of our "Urban" centers...like Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, New Orleans, etc
3) Import all of our Illegal Immigrants
4) Import all of our mentally ill adults and children, from poor neighborhoods, and in the millions in schools
5) Import our gangs
6) Import our drug addicted

Then come back and rewrite this thread.

Cheers

a reply to: Astyanax

Thank You for your reply.

You add information I did not very concretely knew about and eloquently add to what I was trying to say.
You also have the real world experience that I am lacking to back it up. Much Apreciated.

Kind Regards

Oh and....

7) Have complete open borders, connected to a region with the highest murder rates, largest drug cartels, with a culture that has NOTHING similar to yours...
8) Share a border with drug mules, coyotes, sex slavers, narco gangs
9) Import every Third World reject with open arms.

Cheers

a reply to: visitedbythem

Well I am not particularly opposed to Cannabis, but seeing that he is a famous pot grower, could add to attracting the wrong element.....? It is quite the assumption I concede, but it was the first thing that came to mind when I read your post.

Also he might very well have been in a position that necessitates using that revolver, but who is to say really?

Beyond that, is it not still somewhat of an isolated incident? Again I can imagine the slippery slope of that kind of reasoning. Like when is something isolated and when is it not.

Kind Regards.

a reply to: Astyanax

A star

a reply to: GamleGamle

S&F

If we resort to violence to get our way, be it with guns or any other weapon, we have already lost.

One very very important point folks in Europe always forget when it comes to the 2nd.. (I live in Germany right now and constantly have to explain things to my European friends)

Most European nations have been around a lot longer than the USA, they are far removed from the civil war/outright war that formed their nation.

In the long history of nations the USA is a baby who just learned how to walk...

Considering the Brits marched to Lexington and Concord to confiscate weapons and powder... it makes sense that the Framers would work gun ownership into the Constitution. (at least to me)

As for the shooting issue in America... its hard to quantify.. we have a breakdown of the family unit, kids getting their "father" figure from gangs... we have a ton of chemicals in our water, in our food (along with hormones). We have kids being medicated for ADHD at record levels... we have teens medicated for Depression at record levels... We have a lack of respect for the sanctity of life in many areas of the country..

Its not just that we have a lot of guns... their has always been a lot of guns.. but suddenly the number of mass shootings has ballooned ... partly because the powers that be keep changing the criteria.

The rest of the reason... I am not sure.

ETA: I grew up in an area, where nearly every vehicle had a gun in it during hunting season while in high school... just about every kid in school carried a knife... never had a weapon involved in a fight from me and my sister through my eldest niece graduating from that highschool... so whats different?

a reply to: GamleGamle

I found this article of interest: www.11thpa.org...

I understand the source is slanted, but the involvement of Dutch firearms in the American Revolutionary War and early American History is revealed somewhat.

Do you believe there is any validity to the article?

Apparently the link is invalid, sorry. Search "Dutch Arms in the American Revolution" and you'll find it, NRA article.

a reply to: GamleGamle

Yeah.....

If we didn't have 30,000 armed gangs let alone normal criminals we may not need to be fully armed.... But we do.

If you want to see what the US would look like without civilian firearms that is simple... Look at Mexico.

Enough said.

BTW, nobody is allowing us to be armed for our own self defense. We DEMAND it.

Should the time come that someone wants to "not allow" us to defend ourselves, I fear that will be one very bloody year when a % of the population will refuse to have their means of self defense removed.

Trying to remove 80-100 million people of their means of self defense and property will not play out well.

a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Thank you for reading my Post.

Some part of me would like to extensively respond to all the points you have offered, and I certainly could give it my best shot so to speak, but that would break open the discussion in a way that I consider quite unmanageable. So I will not.

What I will say is that every country's situation is unique and the United States may very well have very good reasons for its populace to carry guns. My OP does not actually dispute that in any way.

We do not share borders with a country like Mexico and we do not have that kind of constitution. I believe that is fair to say. There are historic and cultural differences between our countries. Maybe I should have added geopolitical and economic for the sake of thoroughness. Having said that.

We do have Urban Centers. The Netherlands is actually quite a dense population center. One of the densest in the developed world. We are no stranger to illegal immigration and mental health problems. Although it may vary greatly in quantity and quality compared to the United States. Same goes for drug addiction and gangs. I get the sense that we have these things more contained though. I say believe and sense, because I do not know yet for sure, but if this thread requires it, I will delve into that. We have open borders, although this is somewhat changing at the moment. As the EU is trying to deal with the influx of migrants.

Anyway the above is of little consequence in adequately responding to your post. I would like to point out though that some of your points seem to be referencing the same thing. Immigration, Poverty and Mental Health.

There are problems, they need solutions. That does not necessarily mean gun ownership is the answer. There simply exists a conviction that gun ownership is somehow containing these problems. Which might or might not be true. I do not know.

What the solutions are for Poverty, Imigration and Mental Health issues. That is a different discussion altogether. I just dont believe gun ownership is part of the Solution. Just part of the equation.

PS. I find the ""then come back and rewrite this thread" slightly demeaning.
I have tried to respond in a way that I feel is deserving of what you have to say without spiraling into thread drift.
If you would like to make the case why Gun ownership is the solution for these socio-economic problems you are offering.
I welcome them.

Kind Regards

a reply to: Boscov

I found the article and I skimmed over it. Seems to be factual.
As I said in the OP. Dutch people as a whole can be considered Opportunistic and work through economics.
We have not been very picky in what we trade in. I mean we were one of the last nations to abolish slavery for example. Its hard to let go of profitable business when its so profitable. We're no saints by any account of reality. Gun trade included.

Thank your for your imput.

Kind Regards

a reply to: GamleGamle


I didn't mean to sound demeaning, I meant it in a slightly facetious way. I wasn't opposing you at all or trying to sound mean.

More to the point. If you look at American culture, our deaths, our crime. We actually do okay for our population.

Our Per Capita numbers in gun deaths SPIKED after the 1950s. There are certain 'patterns' that have added to that, and which correlate. The problem is that many of us here in the U.S. are too cowardly, and don't want to 'offend people' before it's too late.

Like I listed...

Drugs, an ever increasing and NON-ASSIMILATED flux of people from 3rd world nations, mental illness, gang culture, gang influence...

These things in combination have hit us harder and faster over the last few decades, like a runaway train. Fortunately our gun crimes are actually DECREASING overall, with a few 'trouble areas'...skewing our Per Capita totals.

But I don't have to mention who 'they' are.

And also, I may have sounded a little harsh because I live in Los Angeles and just before I logged on to the internet, I had to grab my knife because two Meth heads were around my car looking at me like they wanted to fight.

I don't like the fact that I have to keep a blade on me for some tattooed idiot high off junk with no life, and "Hispanic" jail tats up and down their necks.

Sorry, this is what being an "American" is like, for some of us.

Wish I could be where you are.

a reply to: Irishhaf

Thank you for your imput.

Nothing really to add. I am in agreement with you. The Netherlands her Gun Laws were last changed in 1997 so 18 years ago. And yes we are further removed from the civil wars that forged our countries. Although why would the populace not want guns after the second world war? That is very recent history. Europe was in ruins.... I think the answer lies with the people's mentality. European populace lacks the drive for fierce independence.

General weapon ownership is growing in our country, including knifes. So things are slowly changing, but what I was meaning to say is that there is a general weapon adversity among the people here. Or at least me personally.

Kind Regards

a reply to: infolurker

The argument that Guns made the rise of these gangs possible comes to mind. Although I could not prove it to you, could you tell me more about why you think all these gangs came to be?

You know if what your saying is true about the United States looking like Mexico without guns. That is a very sobering thought about the state of the United States. Not so united........ not much cohesion that binds people together anymore huh?

Yes, what I know about America, makes me come to the same conclusion. It would be an extremely bloody ordeal, any gun confiscation. I see the fiery independence in you that I am talking about.

Kind Regards