More Shame n' Judgement Please

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
Out of curiosity, I have a question for those who follow this issue closely: How does the academic community explain the relative lack of transgender examples throughout history, when a growing portion of the modern population suffers from transgender syndrome?

I am not the academic community and an explanation of this has already been provided but I will elaborate on this point a bit.

Transgender (and gay) people have existed throughout all of history and the only thing growing in the modern population is awareness of them. Scientific research, medical knowledge and understanding exists today that did not even 100 years ago as do accepted and proven diagnostic and therapeutic standards of care.

Societal changes have also increased awareness of transfolks but acceptance and understanding of them lags far behind which can be held partly responsible for the atrocious rates of suicide, homelessness, employment and housing problems, rejection and survival sex work experienced by many in this demographic.

Previously these voices were not heard. They were shunned, locked away or not spoken of and those with debilitating and overwhelming gender dysphoria just ended their own misery or did whatever possible in their own way to survive. Even in the 1930's and 40's medical science was trying to help these people but it wasn't until the early 1950's before this came into the public eye in this country (US) with the debut of Christine Jorgensen

In the 1966, pioneering work in this field was published by Dr. Harry Benjamin who coined the term "transsexual" for those seeking to physically "change sex". Research studies and clinics were established at Stanford and Johns Hopkins universities and the whole thing progressed from there. In the 1970's and 80's, the term "transgender" came into popular use to also include non-binary genders, gender non-conforming people and other expressions of gender that did not necessarily include surgical or hormonal treatments. "Transsexual" is still used in medical and scientific research and literature to describe those that desire or have undergone surgical reassignment procedures.

It has only been within the last 15 to 20 years that gender dysphoria, the condition behind a person knowing they are supposed to be the opposite sex has been recognized and addressed in children. Protocols devised in Europe for the use of puberty inhibiting drugs have been used in this country in the neighborhood of ten years or so but their efficacy in helping trans kids has gained broad acceptance. These kids today stand the best chance of living happy, healthy and productive normal lives than they ever have and I'm all on-board with that.

For more, here is a very good article that explains a lot: As transgender youth make news, doctors say it is not a fad but a previously hidden issue

Sorry for the long and boring posts. Some people genuinely wish to know more about these things and I'm doing what I can to bring some facts and awareness to this subject. I'm not trying to push some liberal progressive agenda or political or moral beliefs, just some knowledge of things so that trans kids (and adults) can have access to the things to better their lives and the hope of some understanding from others.

a reply to: queenofswords

You missed the entire gist of the discussion in order to hyperventilate about something nobody argues with.

I got the gist. My reply was succinct, calm and measured. Since you were looking for more, let's take the long way around:

Yes, society does change in some ways and CHOOSES to not change in other ways. Cultures and societies in general always maintain some of their taboos and mores throughout time. That is a fact, and thank goodness this is the case. It maintains order and stability and allows for a gradual assimilation of ideas and situations.

Society CHOOSES not to change? What that says to me is that some parts of society are capable of seeing the choice, recognizing that there's an alternative - but ignore all that and stick with what makes them feel comfortable. Maintaining a taboo for maintenance sake makes no sense. You want a gradual assimilation of ideas and situations? If that's true - it also means that at some point things will be assimilated - and change. You should accept that

This may all be happening too fast for some folks...I understand - but there's always a tipping point. That's where we are right now

Change does not always mean progressing for the better. Sometimes just the opposite.

Please explain how accepting transgender children - completely and unconditionally - is not a change for the better

That is why we, as a society, take time, go through agonizing periods of debate, do massive amounts of studies and research, and then make a determination...as a society together....whether or not to accept or deny something.

That's exactly what's happening. It's never going to be unanimous. This is not something that can be denied by most of the people for that much longer

Honestly - anyone that can't look at these kids and understand that this is nature - not nurture - is a little thick. But, hey - that's just me calling it as I see it. At some point that light should turn on. Once you see the light there's no point in maintaining a way of life that is inherently cruel to some members of society. Having a new found freedom to not force our views on our children only makes it easier to see the truth over and over again until it becomes normal - not taboo. Our kids are not what we demand of them - they are what they are - simple

Through all the centuries of our shared existence these many variations on the theme of gender have also existed. Until more recently they were not free people

...discuss it without inappropriate demands...

Society can pretty much stuff that. There's no good reason why people fighting for their identities or freedom should wait until everyone else feels OK about it. This is happening - now is the time

But, in the end, society WILL make the decision as to what to keep and what to disallow.

Yes

:-)

a reply to: queenofswords

They referred to all three boys rushing to get the pink cutlery and yet two of the boys have not followed the path of their sibling. This and the fact that they showed concern and sought medical advice would suggest to me there was no hidden agenda or anything unintentional going on.

As Freija stated, I think the majority of parents would try every option in an attempt to discourage choosing a lifestyle which is fraught with difficulties. Saying that I think seeking medical guidance is far better than punishing a child in this situation.

My own father is racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and now Islamophobic. He complains about the number of cars on the road and blames it on women getting jobs and wanting cars! I was brought up with this from day one and yet I am completely the opposite. I think most children reach a certain age where they question their parents views, look at their own experiences, seek further knowledge and form independent views. Where children grow up and naturally adopt their parents views without question, shows emotional and psychological immaturity in my opinion.

Ironically he stopped me getting my ear pierced at 14 (in the 70's) because he said it was not "man-like". His grandson had his ear pierced at 12 (several years ago) and now he says its ok because it is considered "normal" now and footballers do it.

Freija, thanks for taking the time to present all this info. Sadly it will be wasted on some people. They have rigid views which are impervious to knowledge acquisition and any form of rational reasoning.

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

Kudos to the OP for boldly defending an unpopular opinion...and for resilience and patience when reading replies.

I think most people asked for evidence to support her views and she continually avoided providing this. Yes I would call that resilience.

a reply to: deliberator

This topic is of much interest to me because early childhood development is a topic I studied and continue to be interested in on many levels, not just this subject, so honestly I thank you and Freija for the information and sharing your personal experiences and knowledge. It helps everybody learn and be more understanding.

One thing I know is that we absolutely do not have statistical data to know how prevalent this was historically. Some think there may actually be an increase in these cases. People like to say that it has always been so, but that is not necessarily true as far as prevalence goes.

We owe it to do everything within our power to understand the biological, neurological, endocrinological, environmental, societal, and psychological pathology of this condition. We have various studies that are all over the place without anybody having definitive answers. One can find quote after quote and study after study to support a variety of opinions and "conclusions".

I don't want to see one child suffer with such severe anxiety and dysphoria that it results in having to go through all kinds of painful processes to relieve it. I just want more discussion without personal biases and more studies to address it. If it is something that happens in utero, or during the stage of infancy where children begin to gender identify, or some other stage, let's keep researching it. Meantime, do what we need to do to help these children feel happy and be healthy as they go through the painful process of adjustment and change. That's all I'm saying.

originally posted by: queenofswords

We owe it to do everything within our power to understand the biological, neurological, endocrinological, environmental, societal, and psychological pathology of this condition. We have various studies that are all over the place without anybody having definitive answers. One can find quote after quote and study after study to support a variety of opinions and "conclusions".

Why? Because of the "ick" factor? Because this makes you uncomfortable?

It's not life threatening. It's not an impairment that will keep you from being anything you want in life.

Acceptance and support does not require a scientific reason.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: queenofswords

We owe it to do everything within our power to understand the biological, neurological, endocrinological, environmental, societal, and psychological pathology of this condition. We have various studies that are all over the place without anybody having definitive answers. One can find quote after quote and study after study to support a variety of opinions and "conclusions".

Why? Because of the "ick" factor? Because this makes you uncomfortable?

It's not life threatening. It's not an impairment that will keep you from being anything you want in life.

Acceptance and support does not require a scientific reason.

No "ick" factor here. You have serious issues and seem unable to "hear" properly. Acceptance and support does not mean we should shelve research. Sheesh!

originally posted by: queenofswords

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: queenofswords

We owe it to do everything within our power to understand the biological, neurological, endocrinological, environmental, societal, and psychological pathology of this condition. We have various studies that are all over the place without anybody having definitive answers. One can find quote after quote and study after study to support a variety of opinions and "conclusions".

Why? Because of the "ick" factor? Because this makes you uncomfortable?

It's not life threatening. It's not an impairment that will keep you from being anything you want in life.

Acceptance and support does not require a scientific reason.

No "ick" factor here. You have serious issues and seem unable to "hear" properly. Acceptance and support does not mean we should shelve research. Sheesh!

No, I don't think I do.

I would never put scientific "why" above the need/welfare of a child. I would not even think it.

This has come up in homosexual discussions ---- "if we find out why, we can have a cure". NO! Just NO!

What is known today is our brain tells us who we are. The complexity is so great there is no way to know if we'll ever have the answers.

originally posted by: queenofswords
We have various studies that are all over the place without anybody having definitive answers. One can find quote after quote and study after study to support a variety of opinions and "conclusions".

Books and papers and people in lab coats, study after study and quote after quote are all fine things but to truly get a sense of the human reality, you need to talk to a trans kid and learn straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. There really is no higher authority on the subject or anything that can be more overwhelmingly convincing that they are real and have no confusion or doubt about who they are.

I don't want to see one child suffer with such severe anxiety and dysphoria that it results in having to go through all kinds of painful processes to relieve it. I just want more discussion without personal biases and more studies to address it. If it is something that happens in utero, or during the stage of infancy where children begin to gender identify, or some other stage, let's keep researching it. Meantime, do what we need to do to help these children feel happy and be healthy as they go through the painful process of adjustment and change. That's all I'm saying.

The absolute worst and most damaging thing for a trans kid is to dismiss their identity and to not treat and accept them for who they are. The "painful processes" you speak of completely pale in comparison to the pain of being forced to be someone they are not or to go through puberty of their natal sex. The "painful processes of adjustment and change" are not a child's perspective. Parents maybe but from a young trans kid's point of view, nothing can make them happier and be more of a godsend than transitioning regardless of whatever problems other people have with it.

I'll leave it there for now as not to present another wall of TL;DR text, but the topic and my willingness to discuss it dispassionately as my advocacy allows remains open and appreciated.

a reply to: Annee
That's just not a tenable argument.

When you say "our brain tells us who we are" you are implying that any whim or impulsive action is justifiable.
Human beings are prone to all sorts of inappropriate desires and destructive behaviors. Self control and discipline are necessary in a civil society.

Would you pat a serial killer on the head for "listening to his brain?" How about a thief or rapist?

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: Annee
That's just not a tenable argument.

When you say "our brain tells us who we are" you are implying that any whim or impulsive action is justifiable.
Human beings are prone to all sorts of inappropriate desires and destructive behaviors. Self control and discipline are necessary in a civil society.

Would you pat a serial killer on the head for "listening to his brain?" How about a thief or rapist?

The "new" science of brain scanning facinates me, and I've read quite a bit about it over the last 10 years.

I've been following LGBTQ info for about 20 years. I've read a lot on research etc. including the fruit fly where researchers were able to change sexual attraction by altering brain chemicals.

I do believe we are who we are born. Of course some behaviors, etc. can be affected by nurturing, but not everything.

Yes, from reading articles on brain scan science I do believe serial killers are born, at least some.

I have no need for you to agree with me. I state what I think, but I won't do circular argument as its a waste of time in that I will not be changing my mind, and you probably won't be changing yours.

SIDE NOTE: ever read up on Einstein's brain? It's really interesting. news.sciencemag.org...

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

Annee is incapable of making proper arguments, as this thread has shown over and over. It would do better to ignore her than pander to the way she twists whats on the table into a different subject altogether.

originally posted by: chadderson
a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

Annee is incapable of making proper arguments, as this thread has shown over and over. It would do better to ignore her than pander to the way she twists whats on the table into a different subject altogether.

My direct statements too much for you?

That I don't do the "circular circus" and play mind games too much for you?

There is much in science that is not explained. But, not all science has a living voice.

LGBTQ has a living voice. Only a closed mind would shove that to the side ---- hanging on to "there's no hard science".

a reply to: Annee

Twisting words and changing subjects once again. I have never said anything about "hard science". In fact it has been people asking me to 'provide' scientific claims to validate my positions, which I did. My beliefs stem form personal experience and a personal relationship with our creator. I am not going to respond to any more of your posts on this thread. Your tenacity is admirable but there is a difference between accuracy and precision.

originally posted by: chadderson
Your tenacity is admirable but there is a difference between accuracy and precision.

Interesting (and quite ironic) statement, while citing "...a personal relationship with our creator."

originally posted by: chadderson
a reply to: Annee

Twisting words and changing subjects once again. I have never said anything about "hard science". In fact it has been people asking me to 'provide' scientific claims to validate my positions, which I did. My beliefs stem form personal experience and a personal relationship with our creator. I am not going to respond to any more of your posts on this thread. Your tenacity is admirable but there is a difference between accuracy and precision.

Enough. My posts are very straight forward. If you don't like them, that's on you.

I'm atheist and have no interest in your personal creator belief or what relationship you think you have.

LGTB has nothing to do with belief.

a reply to: queenofswords

I think I previously mentioned about me nursing post op transgender surgery patients in post anaesthetic care. We performed two surgeries a week. In two years the average age range I encountered was between 45-65, some were in their 70s (having cosmetic transgender surgery). I only encountered a handful below 30 years.

I think it is truly tragic that someone has to wait until middle age, sometimes old age, to be the gender they desire. I think the reason this happens is due to it not being as acceptable in the 1930 - 1980s as it is today.

You have to remember that fact in relation to history. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.