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More Shame n' Judgement Please

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posted on Dec, 13 2015 @ 07:37 PM
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a reply to: deliberator

Thank you for posting that video. No confusion, no ambiguity when the child says "I AM a girl".

I've avoided being more vocal in this thread because without apology, I am a highly biased advocate for the support, understanding and acceptance of transgender children. I have knowledge and experience in these matters and do tend to lack patience with the poorly informed and am often less than successful in avoiding emotionally driven arguments. Please excuse me if i have been out of line.

With that said, OP, your categorizing gay and trans people as defective, broken, psychotic and pathological simply flies in the face of scientific and medical understanding and consensus. It is also a good way to piss a lot of people off and subject yourself to criticism and ridicule. I certainly hope that should you indeed ever have children that are gay or trans, that you don't look at them as defects or suffering from mental illness. I also strongly believe that should you ever have a transgender kid of your own, you'd be whistling a different tune about the whole thing in short order. Do less and you're likely to lose that child.

Please do read through the thread I linked above. After you weed out some of the hurtful, abusive comments and flatly ignorant statements, take time to read some of the linked research and comments of some much better informed than yourself in these matters. Knowledge and not pseudo-scientific stuff associated in your own mind along with political or religious or moral positioning will help you understand the situations involved and plight of transgender children much better. At least I would hope so anyway?




posted on Dec, 13 2015 @ 07:41 PM
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a reply to: chadderson

Not really. Not even a little, actually. Im interested in any link that supports what you have asserted.

Epigenetics explains it pretty well, though. Which really is diametrically opposed to what you are asserting.



posted on Dec, 13 2015 @ 07:42 PM
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originally posted by: chadderson
a reply to: deliberator

Homosexuality is a product of defective anatomy within the human body. The male is made to mate with the female, and vice versa. The attraction a male experiences towards a female is innate, and supposed to happen to ensure procreation of the human species. Males that are not attracted to females feel this way for a reason. The reason I am providing is that a chemical imbalance exists that prohibits the mechanics of proper anatomical function.


Science is not that advanced. One, there are too many science fiction stories in the world. Second, people gain money from upholding this illusion. Third, those who don't get money out of it get a sense of peace, in case anything happens, there's technology and knowledge that will fix it for me. And a fourth perhaps altough it belongs to the third group, some people get a kick out of proclaiming something is science because it can increase the chance of winning an argument significantly.

While everything is biological and a matter of chemicals, there is also nurture. Physically there might be too much female hormones running through a male babies body and this might give a predisposition, or more susceptible to attraction to any gender later in life but I believe it's nurture what confuses the person who then begins to believe he or she is only attracted to the same gender.



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 04:09 PM
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a reply to: Freija

That video was a game changer to me personally.



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 04:42 PM
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a reply to: deliberator

The video was very interesting and the child obviously is insistent that he is a girl. It is probably too late to change that now and he will have to undergo all the pain, stigma, and physical transformation that goes with that.

My question: The fact that his parents are lesbians, one of which looks very much like a man from the back (they did not show her face), do you think they may have failed early on out of their own personal biases, to help that child properly gender identify.

There are stages in early childhood development where certain things are solidified.

If you have a parent that tells a child he can be a girl or a boy and that he gets to choose, then you have dropped the ball. You have failed in your responsibility to help that child identify who and what he/she is and although you may have done that innocently because the current sociological environment encourages this kind of enabling, you have enabled faulty perception.

It can be something as simple as this: A little 3-yr. old boy walks into the living room with his mother's high heels on and lipstick smeared across his mouth. What would you do? Enable the behavior? Or, take the shoes off, take him to the bathroom, and as you remove the lipstick, use it as a teaching moment to explain an aspect of the boy/girl identification process, reaffirming what he/she is. gently but firmly. It is a parental responsibility to do this.




Researchers who have observed how children begin to understand gender agree that children begin this process at a very early age. Children seem to have an understanding of gender by about age 7, but there are several stages they go through along the way. It is important to have realistic expectations about gender related issues and to understand typical development and when to get more help. The following outline describes how children understand gender at different ages.

7 months Infants can begin to tell the difference between male and female voices. Infants can tell the difference between their mother’s and their father’s voices. They will often turn their heads toward mother or father when he or she is talking.

12 months Infants begin to tell the difference between male and female faces. Infants will also spend more time looking at their mother and/or father than other less familiar people. At this age, infants will turn to a woman’s face if they hear a woman speaking. They will look at a man’s face if they hear a man talking.

2 years Toddlers begin to use gender stereotypes in their play. Young girls begin to play with “female toys,” and young boys play with “male toys.” Parents also may treat their children differently. Many young girls are dressed in “pretty” clothing and treated very delicately. Young boys are often dressed in “cute” clothes that are easy to move around in. Boys are often encouraged to be active and strong.

2-3 years At this age, young children are developing “gender identity.” This means that they begin to label themselves and others as male or female. They can use words to label friends, family, and themselves as a boy or a girl.

3-4 years Children at this age begin to use “gender typing.” They like putting things in categories, and gender is one way to do that. For example, a three-year-old child may think that trucks are male toys, because boys usually play with trucks.

4-6 years Children at this age begin to understand and use “gender scripts.” This is another way to put things in categories. Instead of grouping things, they put events or activities in groups related to gender. For example, a five-year-old child may think that a person putting on make-up has to be a female. That child may also think that only males lift weights, so everyone lifting weights must be a male.

6-7 years Before this age, boys might think that they will grow up to be women. Girls might think they will be daddies when they are older. By age 6 or 7 though, most children understand and believe that a person’s gender is constant. They know it will not change throughout life. Most children this age also know that a man is still a man, even if he dresses like a woman.
www.extension.purdue.edu...


edit on 14-12-2015 by queenofswords because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-12-2015 by queenofswords because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 05:25 PM
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originally posted by: queenofswords

My question: The fact that his parents are lesbians, one of which looks very much like a man from the back (they did not show her face), do you think they may have failed early on out of their own personal biases, to help that child properly gender identify.


Only one set of parents in the video were lesbians and they addressed the very same issues you have raised. Parental influence and coaching is one of the most common myths about transgender children. Am I saying that has never happened? No, but the vast majority of transgender children come from traditional families. One comment was made along the lines of dressing little Johnny up in dresses and treating him like a girl is not going to go over too well with little boys.

You can also be fairly certain that parents of any transgender child have gone to great lengths to promote and reinforce gender typical behavior and done everything else imaginable to make this go away. For some children, this is a phase that they will grow out of and studies show that many of these kids will grow up to be gay. For other transgender, gender dysphoric children, there simply is no other option or treatment that will convince them otherwise that they are not what they know in their heart and soul to be. That is because they are what they say they are by all testable and observable means. Transgender Kids Show Consistent Gender Identity Across Measures

Without any doubt, the lives and futures for these kids are going to be difficult and challenging but the consequences of ignoring it or denying it or forcing a child to live as someone they do not believe with their deepest convictions themselves to be present much higher risks and frequently tragic outcomes.



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 06:07 PM
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a reply to: Freija

I have seen the way some parents go out of their way to be the "hip" open-minded types that inadvertently enable gender confusion. I have witnessed it myself.

In an effort to conform with much of today's push to allow "children to be who they are", many parents forget that it is part of their responsibility to help that child avoid confusion. Kids are concrete thinkers until about the age of 8 or 9. They need concrete explanations, not a lot of mumbo jumbo psychobabble and "I'm-too-hip for my shirt" thinking. In childhood, there are windows of time to accomplish certain things.

I'm not saying it is the case with this child, nor with all trans children. But, I do think many parents are dropping the ball when it comes to helping their children gender identify. Kids are exposed to confusing messages on TV shows, commercials, and even real life. It is a lot harder to navigate through the mixed messages now.

Parenting through all the weeds of confusion is a difficult journey.

Agree or disagree with this dad:






edit on 14-12-2015 by queenofswords because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 06:31 PM
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originally posted by: queenofswords

Disagree or disagree with this dad:


Which part? The one where he says he will love his children unconditionally forever regardless of how they turn out? I think that is pretty dang awesome.

And for crying out loud, letting a little boy pick the toy he wants or allowing a boy to play with dolls is not going to make him turn queer or want to be a woman when he grows up. I take it you see him failing as a parent to strictly enforce rigid societal gender roles? Since his son's choice was obviously a surprise, I'm sure this kid has had gender roles and masculine behavior reinforced and demonstrated by example his whole life and I honestly don't see this as promoting or encouraging anything.

What if his daughter had wanted a Tonka truck, baseball bat or GI Joe instead of a Barbie and ballerina slippers? Do you think this would make her grow up and be confused about her gender?



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 06:57 PM
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a reply to: Freija

Freija, please don't take my stance as one of argumentativeness. It is a discussion and an exchange of thoughts and ideas. I have no bias nor phobia about this issue...just an interest and a concern for the children that have to go through this confusion and dysphoria.

So, of course, not the part where he says he will love him unconditionally. What are we talking about in this thread?

Maybe you missed my point or I didn't explain very well. I'm not trying to discount your feelings about this subject. I'm trying to explain that, imo, a parent needs to use things like toys, role-playing, etc. to help that child solidify and imprint the understanding of what his/her gender is. So, yes. I think this dad in the video dropped the ball.



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 07:09 PM
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He didn't make the boy "Man Up"?

I love this video: www.youtube.com...


edit on 14-12-2015 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 07:54 PM
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Out of curiosity, I have a question for those who follow this issue closely: How does the academic community explain the relative lack of transgender examples throughout history, when a growing portion of the modern population suffers from transgender syndrome?

Kudos to the OP for boldly defending an unpopular opinion...and for resilience and patience when reading replies. Why a person would visit a site like ATS and then scream for censorship when they are offended, I do not understand.



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 07:59 PM
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originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
How does the academic community explain the relative lack of transgender examples throughout history, when a growing portion of the modern population suffers from transgender syndrome?



Charley Parkhurst - - - I'm sure there is more. I just happen to know about this one.



Charley Darkey Parkhurst, born Charlotte Darkey Parkhurst (1812–1879),[1] also known as One Eyed Charley or Six-Horse Charley, was an American stagecoach driver, farmer and rancher in California. Born and reared as a girl in New England, mostly in an orphanage, Parkhurst ran away as a youth, taking the name Charley and living as a male. He started work as a stable hand and learned to handle horses, including to drive coaches drawn by multiple horses. He worked in Massachusetts and Rhode Island, traveling to Georgia for associated work.

In his late 30s, Parkhurst sailed to California following the Gold Rush in 1849; there he became a noted stagecoach driver. In 1868, he may have been the first female (though passing as a man) to vote in a presidential election in California.[1][2] At his death, it was discovered that he was female, as was the fact that he had given birth at an earlier time.


en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 14-12-2015 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 08:33 PM
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originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Exactly. Kids will see body parts. Parents are extremely naive if they think they won't. Body parts are not evil. If you teach a kid that seeing body parts is evil, that kid will grow up to have a major complex. Bad parenting.

What's that saying? Guns don't kill, people kill. Penises on their own don't hurt anyone either.


Do you have a school age daughter?



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 08:40 PM
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originally posted by: sirlancelot

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Exactly. Kids will see body parts. Parents are extremely naive if they think they won't. Body parts are not evil. If you teach a kid that seeing body parts is evil, that kid will grow up to have a major complex. Bad parenting.

What's that saying? Guns don't kill, people kill. Penises on their own don't hurt anyone either.


Do you have a school age daughter?


I have 2 grown daughters and a 15 year old granddaughter.

A transgender m/f does not want to expose themselves

If, for some reason that happens - - - it might be an Ewwwwwwwww factor for 5 minutes - - - then so what.

This is not about your daughter (if you have one) - - its about you and your own fears.



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 08:46 PM
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originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
Out of curiosity, I have a question for those who follow this issue closely: How does the academic community explain the relative lack of transgender examples throughout history, when a growing portion of the modern population suffers from transgender syndrome?

I would guess it's a societal phenomenon. As less people are beaten and murdered due to their being transgender, more are willing to reveal themselves.



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 09:41 PM
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a reply to: queenofswords

Sorry I missed this yesterday



Change does not always mean progressing for the better. Sometimes just the opposite.


These kinds of changes are for the better - even if they don't meet with some people's approval

Nobody has the right to deny somebody else the freedom to be who they are

Human rights come before peoples religious, cultural or personal bugaboos



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 09:45 PM
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originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: queenofswords

Sorry I missed this yesterday



Change does not always mean progressing for the better. Sometimes just the opposite.


These kinds of changes are for the better - even if they don't meet with some people's approval

Nobody has the right to deny somebody else the freedom to be who they are

Human rights come before peoples religious, cultural or personal bugaboos


You missed the entire gist of the discussion in order to hyperventilate about something nobody argues with.



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 09:58 PM
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Sorry. That sounded rude and I didn't intend for it to. The quote from my post about change was in reference to the discussion about men and women sharing the same restrooms and exposure of genitals in mixed company. The point was that society decides what changes we make regarding social mores and social taboos. Some are good changes and others we, as a society and culture, reject, CHOOSING not to make that particular change. Thus, change is not always good. Holding on to certain mores and taboos is a good thing sometimes.



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 10:41 PM
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Has anyone ever seen anybody flash their genitals in a restroom?

In same company?



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 10:58 PM
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originally posted by: queenofswords

Freija, please don't take my stance as one of argumentativeness. It is a discussion and an exchange of thoughts and ideas. I have no bias nor phobia about this issue...just an interest and a concern for the children that have to go through this confusion and dysphoria.

Thank you. I am also trying to discuss this as an adult and bring what I've learned to the table to help with the understanding of transgender children and their family's issues and problems. This is a difficult challenge for all involved and discussion of this subject is highly polarizing and often fueled by or half truths and misinformation. I'm using my time here to try to work on that and the best I can hope for is back and forth open-minded discussion.


Maybe you missed my point or I didn't explain very well. I'm not trying to discount your feelings about this subject. I'm trying to explain that, imo, a parent needs to use things like toys, role-playing, etc. to help that child solidify and imprint the understanding of what his/her gender is. So, yes. I think this dad in the video dropped the ball.

I don't have much else to say about the dad in the video. I will say that gender isn't entirely a simple social construct that can be programmed in or taught, however cultural rules and expectations can be to some degree. Much, if not most of it is innate human behavior that science points to being biological in nature. Most little boys that play with dolls, girls that play with trucks in the mud or other children exhibiting gender atypical social behaviors or play are not (but can be) transgender.

When looking at children that truly are gender dysphoric, you're usually going to find parents that have gone to great ends and made every effort to reinforce gender norms and have done everything imaginable to make their little boys boys and their little girls girls. Most parents are absolutely horrified when everything they've done since birth trying to teach, demonstrate and instill appropriate gender behavior in their child fails. Typically, when a kid starts verbalizing and displaying gender behavior of the opposite sex around 3 or 4, parents try even harder to force the issue.

I don't rule out anything in this nutty world but the common belief that liberal progressive parents just roll over at the first notion of or signs of a boy wanting to be a girl so they can be hip and modern is a fallacy. Most parents fight tooth and nail against this. What kind of decent parent would ever want something like this for their child? I won't deny that there may be some out there with their own problems but this is simply not the case for most transgender children.

Take the kid and his dad in the video that Annee posted for example. The father undoubtedly has spend this whole child's life trying to make him a boy and to act masculine. He has lead by example. He has tried punishment and shame. He longingly looks at other fathers and their sons and wonders wtf is wrong with his kid. He forces his child to wear boy's clothes that makes for a very unhappy and unbudgingly obstinate child. This can destroy families and if these children don't get some kind of support and comfort, can destroy them as well. Think what the outcomes would be if this video didn't have a happy ending? Many many of these kids don't have happy endings.

These parents you hear about that do have young children that have transitioned do not get to this point without a great deal of stress and many sleepless nights. None that I am aware of have gone down this road without professional evaluation and counseling and are doing what is best for their children in spite of what others may think.



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