I've noticed that Gleamer is beginning to branch out and expand his horizons. By this, I mean that now he is not only flaming Masons, but also non-Masons who have the gall and audacity to actually disagree with him.

This post will not return evil for evil, and is not a flame. Rather, it is a rational look at his method of attacks, and a breakdown of his circular logic. Armed with a little knowledge of breaking through such a smokescreen, anyone can defend themselves against a B.S. artist when attacked.

I've never claimed to know much about anything except for just a few interrelated subjects, viz., Freemasonry, philosophy, and history. With the study of philosophy comes the study of one of its subsets, formal logic, first introduced in its modern form by Aristotle, and which remains the basis of all logic, in both syllogism and symbolic logic.

Gleamer has failed all of the logical tests miserably. A golden rule of formal logic is that if a premiss contains a fallacy, then the conclusion is ipso facto erroneous. The fallacies in Gleamer's arguments are as follows:

1. A common fallacy used by Gleamer is the fallacy Ad Ignorantium, which is a fallacy of relevance, and literally means "arguing from ignorance". This fallacy is an example of circular logic because it assumes that a premiss is true just because it has not been proven false, or vice versa. No one on the forum needs me to point out to them how many times Gleamer has used this particular fallacy in the past 24 hours.

2. Another of his fallacies is Ad Verecundiam, also a fallacy of relevance, and means "appeal to inappropriate authority". In Gleamer's case, this fallacy consists in posting links to conspiracy websites, i.e., claiming those people have some sort of authority over historians or serious Masonic researchers on the subject.

3. Yet another fallacy of relevance used by gleamer is Ad Hominem, which is sometimes called the "straw man argument." This fallacy is used when Gleamer tries to dodge the issues by personally attacking Masons, whether it be me, Pike, etc. When this fallacy is used, with Gleamer on Pike for example, Gleamer doesn't criticize the real, historical Albert Pike, but he instead sets up a "straw man" Pike who was the imaginary leader of the Ku Klux Klan or devil worshiper, or whatever, and attacks this straw man.

4. A further fallacy of relevance by Gleamer is Ad Populum, which is "appeal to emotions". In this fallacy, facts are ignored in order to try to convince people to accept your view by playing on their emotions. Gleamer uses this almost always in combination with ad hominem.

5. A different sort of fallacy he often uses is a fallacy of presumption called petitio principii, which means "begging the question". This fallacy is merely to assume the truth of what one seeks to prove in order to prove it. As the definition indicates, it is the basis of the circular argument, and has thus far been used in every single post made by Gleamer.

According to Aristotle, and every logician since him, it only takes one fallacy to make the entire argument bogus. However, all 6 of the above can be found in practically ever Gleamer post.

Men and women of Athens, you be the judge.

Well, we can say that on these discussions there was a lot of times he made me laugh, but that doesn't mean he's wrong in everything, since masonry is a secret society, there's more people which can follow and believe what he is talking about, and more likely if haven't heard anything before or elsewhre about the people mentioned, quoted and accused of long thread of undeeds.
It is benefit to have this on the site, or else these storytelling would grow as a myth more if it is forbid to speak about. I am sure Gleamer will appear on this topic soon, and everyone should have right to defend himself.
On the other side I would to point out common belief(s or misbeliefs) or the people who haven't been into masonry.
Members of masonry were many of distinguished members of society in last centuries.
Many logicaly unexplainable historic events are attached to a stories about members of free masons, and all kind of groups which common people all connect to masonry (proof is not what person need when comes to this).
Only to post one theory for how something may be done:
For hypothetical situation we may asume some members of free masonry take some high places in the govening one country in one moment of history. Second, those people came to a possible good idea to turn into practice, but that country having troubles, or war, or civil unrest, and this idea fails. People now blaming the leaders which made that started. If it can be connnected to masonry, here is one to blame.
I don't want to make a long post here, but as I understood freemasons are significant part of the society in western countries, and certain amount of power is among them.


[edit on 6-1-2005 by MankoW]

Originally posted by MankoW
Well, we can say that on these discussions there was a lot of times he made me laugh, but that doesn't mean he's wrong in everything, since masonry is a secret society,

It's not very secret if you ask me, I found out everything just by asking people who attended a lodge near my home. The problem of secret is that people tend not to believe the normal answer and would rather find truth in conspiracy. Each to their own.

There's more people which can follow and believe what he is talking about,

Couldn't really make much sense myself, he made a statement, his error was pointed out, he made the same statement again, his error was again pointed out in a different manner, he made the same point again...

if haven't heard anything before or elsewhre about the people mentioned, quoted and accused of long thread of undeeds

Isn't it funny the side people believe first. I have always lived my life with the view people are innocent until proven guilty, and I extend this belief to groups, nations etc and I also thought this was the law, in most places anyway, but isn't it strange how so many people believe the conspiracy. Must of been a lot of people out there who loved "Chinese Whispers" as a child.

It is benefit to have this on the site, or else these storytelling would grow as a myth more if it is forbid to speak about.

I don't think it is a benefit, by using the forum properly and the search facilities you would probably find another five threads of similar length with more or less exactly the same content. There are not that many arguments against freemasonry, it's just the same one's over and over again.

I am sure Gleamer will appear on this topic soon, and everyone should have right to defend himself.

Very true, everyone has the right to defend themselves, but at the same time I don't think GLeamer reads anything that isn't authored by himself.

There must be thorn -
Light (in the sneakers) is a master mason , look at what he says above
See anything solid
Me neither
Now the masons have started more threads- maybe to wash away all the crap Light and his running dogs have spewed.
The moderator -intrepid, is one of those dogs
this isn't about the workings of secret societies
It is a mason roadblock
Their history is replete with con jobs, and treachery.
They have no good name and do not want people finding anything to certain it.
I am only one of millions finding out what the freemason leaders are all about.
The post by masons on this site, bring nothing but the conclusion that Pikes mandates and the elites orders are being followed.
Light is a shining example( good pun huh) and a carefull reader will see that.
Thank you Mr Light and all. You are proving my point
Hitler (a mason) couldn't have done it better

Originally posted by GLeamer
There must be thorn -
Light (in the sneakers) is a master mason , look at what he says above
See anything solid

I am hard pushed to find anything solid in your own posts as well I am afraid.

Now the masons have started more threads- maybe to wash away all the crap Light and his running dogs have spewed.

Really I have never counted myself, what was your final findings, how many posts to each side, mason and non-mason, could be an interesting study.

The moderator -intrepid, is one of those dogs

If that was true he would of petitioned to stop the numerous masons who have been banned from this site.

this isn't about the workings of secret societies

That's plainly obvious, no one has mentioned them yet, just babble and whispers.

It is a mason roadblock

Blocking what, you make a statement, they make a statement against, so they must be lying of course, there is no chance that could possible be wrong.

Their history is replete with con jobs, and treachery.

Who's isn't. You obviously aint Christian then.

They have no good name and do not want people finding anything to certain it.

On the contrary, Freemasonry has an exceptionally good name to the norm. They are classed as the most charitable organistion in the world and can boast some of the most upstanding members of our history as a part of them.

I am only one of millions finding out what the freemason leaders are all about.

I don't think you have found anything out though. And who exactly is the leader of Freemasonry then?

The post by masons on this site, bring nothing but the conclusion that Pikes mandates and the elites orders are being followed.

The posts on this site, the majority but not all, against Freemasonry are mere balderdash, full of ill-informed information, lies and basic slanderous propoganda.

Light is a shining example( good pun huh) and a carefull reader will see that.

The pun has been done before I am sure, but well done *clap* A careful reader will not find much of particular use in the majority of posts.

Thank you Mr Light and all. You are proving my point
Hitler (a mason) couldn't have done it better

Maybe you ought to research the "forget me knot lapel pin" that mason's wear and find out where that came from. Then re-phrase your Hitler-mason bit. I don't care if you dislike masons due to your belief in fairtales but that comment is actually offensive to someone whos know a bit of history.

Sigh.

Hitler - a mason?

See this is why you are nothing but ignorant noise.
Hitler gassed masons. He put them in the same bracket as Jews.


Either post something truthful with substance or go post elsewhere. To tell the truth - you are now officially boring

[edit on 6-1-2005 by Leveller]

Well Hitler gassed Jews and he closed down approximatally a third of all Freemason lodges in Germany because they "Overrun with Jewery" - I guess you could say that he did gas Masons, but it would be more correct to say he gassed Masons if they were Jews (which is kind of redundant.)

Was he a member of "The Freemasons" hard to pin this one down as well because the term can be made as broad or narrow as an argument nessessitates.

He was a memeber of The Thule Society and probably several other ones as well, it also seems that his Number 2 guy (Hess) was in one of the Old Prussian Lodges and may even had honary membership in England before the war.
But we've poured over all this many times before.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Well Hitler gassed Jews and he closed down approximatally a third of all Freemason lodges in Germany because they "Overrun with Jewery"

Which would be classed as racism which has no place in Freemasonry, and therefore would negate him being a member.

I guess you could say that he did gas Masons, but it would be more correct to say he gassed Masons if they were Jews (which is kind of redundant.)

As above though, if he were a mason he would not be able to perform such a racial act and as so many of those against Freemasonry state, Freemasons help only Freemasons, he would of been held by his "oath" to aide a borther in need :?:

But we've poured over all this many times before.

Very true, but like yourself, just can't help adding a comment.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Gleamer has failed all of the logical tests miserably. A golden rule of formal logic is that if a premiss contains a fallacy, then the conclusion is ipso facto erroneous. The fallacies in Gleamer's arguments are as follows:

Very well said, ML.
Actually, you could put most, if not all, of the Masonic detractors in this category.
"_________ has failed all of the logical tests miserably."

A pity these folks don't recognize the truth when they see it! Many here who now stand up and state that Masonry is not the evil and subversive group as many claim were once anti-Masonry. (Like me )
In a small way, I wonder if these Masonic antagonists serve a purpose. I wonder how many who read ATS see the trolls for what they are and realize the good in Masonry?

To ML and the other enlighted brothers on this board,

Rest assured, Gleamer is a repeat or a darn good impersonator of an anti-mason poster I dealt with a year back or so.

He's arguments will always end with the following: "See I'm right because Icke and www.hatemasons&makeupstuff.com says so.

Also, do you really think these guys are walking down to a lodge and asking said questions? My personal opinion is that is some random fella went down to my lodge and called me a satanist, I'd have to have him arrested or detained, they are looney I tell ya.

I also see no substance in any of his posts, he will flame, receive his come uppings, then cry about it in the next post.

So in essence, Gleamer= Waste of Space and Oxygen

He's a troll, ignore him and he'll fly to another forum with his contempt and thinly veiled jealousy.

He's underlying "need to belong" is obvious even to a corrupt Mason like myself.


Don't feed table scraps to the dog....

Regards


The Wiz

Don't know about anyone else, but the number of people posting against Freemasonry has dropped since I started visiting here.

It seems to be the same old few with the odd newcomer now and again.

I am sure the numbers will pick up again, it's a bit like a fad, has numerous members to start then loses steam, then for some reason or another it will start steam rolling again.

I see no purpose to this thread other than an open invitation to start a flame war.

Closed.