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Antikythera !! Any research ??

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posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 11:52 PM
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May be most of the members might be knowing, but for me , its just yesterday that I came across "Antikythera" , the most complex computing machine. It was hard for me to believe and understand the concept of it.
Here is the link .
Can anyone explain its credibility and its importance ??




posted on Jan, 6 2005 @ 12:31 AM
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en.wikipedia.org...

quote from wikipedia
According to his reconstruction, the front dial shows the annual progress of the Sun and Moon through the zodiac against the Egyptian calendar. The upper rear dial displays a four-year period and has associated dials showing the Metonic cycle of 235 synodic months, which equals 19 solar years. A synodic month is the period between two new moons. The lower rear dial plots the cycle of a single synodic month, with a secondary dial showing the lunar year of 12 synodic months.


The device shows that Greek astronomers were paying attention to the relation in time between various events, and it shows some pretty outstanding creative thinking in the field of mechanics.

The implications of the discovery are not earthshattering- certainly not final proof of extra terrestrials giving us technology, but it does force us to reassess our views on the timeline of human intellectual and technological development.
The available explanations are that humans either learned faster, or started learning earlier. Archaeological evidence seems to suggest that the "outbreak" of what you might call "technological civilization" was around 5000 BC in Sumeria, so faster learning seems likely. By the time Greeks were running the show, humanity had been looking around, thinking about what they saw, and writing it down for a few thousand years- we should expect man at that point to have been EXTREMELY knowledgable. We can't assume they knew everything until we've seen evidence, but when evidence such as this comes up we should not be too shocked.



posted on Jan, 6 2005 @ 10:20 AM
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The first link made me think the whole thing was a spoof ("a pile of dead, naked women" was one of the more suspicious fragments of proof) -- but I found a better web page on it, showing the artifact in place in a museum:
www.astro.rug.nl...

These unique artifacts ARE interesting. I don't know that much of a study has been done on them from a scientific aspect, though there are lots of people ready to leap up and claim these devices were made by aliens.



posted on Jan, 6 2005 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd
The first link made me think the whole thing was a spoof ("a pile of dead, naked women" was one of the more suspicious fragments of proof)


You noticed that part too did you? I can't help wondering whats so surprising about somebody being dead and naked after two millennia at the bottom of the sea; that's really what I would expect.



I don't know that much of a study has been done on them from a scientific aspect, though there are lots of people ready to leap up and claim these devices were made by aliens.


I found a little background on what sort of scientific study the device has undergone. The long story short is that the device has been X-rayed and reconstructed several times, and all of its dials are consistent with various lunar-based measurements of time.
If I understand correctly, we don't have the whole device, and there is some speculation and debate as to what other gears might have attatched to the device and what measurements they might have yielded.
Relevant quotes from wikipedia follow.


The late Professor Derek J. de Solla Price, a science historian working at Yale University, published an article on the mechanism in Scientific American in June 1959 while the device was still only partially inspected



A partial reconstruction was built by Australian computer scientist Allan George Bromley (1947-2002) of the University of Sydney and Sydney clockmaker Frank Percival. This project led Bromley to review Price's X-ray analysis and to make new, more accurate X-ray images that were studied by Bromley's student, Bernard Gardner, in 1993.



Later, a British orrery maker named John Gleave constructed a working replica of the mechanism. According to his reconstruction, the front dial shows the annual progress of the Sun and Moon through the zodiac against the Egyptian calendar. The upper rear dial displays a four-year period and has associated dials showing the Metonic cycle of 235 synodic months, which equals 19 solar years. A synodic month is the period between two new moons. The lower rear dial plots the cycle of a single synodic month, with a secondary dial showing the lunar year of 12 synodic months.



posted on Jan, 6 2005 @ 06:57 PM
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I've read quite a bit about it before, so I don't think it's a spoof (if it is it's a far spread one). It's also listed as one of the 10 most mysterious ancient artifacts here...

10 most mysterious ancient artifacts



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 10:57 PM
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thanks byrd and vagabond...
it was really of great help.... but my mind started wabbling around thinking of antikhythera...and its possible use.......how the hell did they make those precise gears..i am a mechanical engg and once i had been working in the gear manufacturing company...and i know what it takes to manufacture a simple looking automobile gear... its a state of art and precision work...maintaining addendums and pressure angles.....its really requires helllova engginering.....
now we have assumptions about the purpose of antikhythera...lunar based measurement of time....one question comes to mind is why did the ancient civilization was soo much interested in time??
antikhythera mechanism, mayan calendar and their astrologies and astronomies.........and many more......but why time??
why were all the civilizations sooo much cautious of time........ were they expecting something.......dangerous?? cosmic shifts?? were they expecting someone.........aliens?? or was it the theory put forward in every next holllywood movie on ancient civilization....The mummy, ...tomb raider.., fifth element, alien vs predator.............. like some alignment of some devine pieces at some specific split second of time (mostly eclipse ) to gain enourmous energy and power ???
all this is driving me crazy...
i am a newbie...so sometimes i think may be this would be normal for a newbie to get excited and restless........... what abt the supermoderators,moderators, fighters,writers....did u experience the same thing when u first joined ATS ??



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by sowhat
thanks byrd and vagabond...
it was really of great help.... but my mind started wabbling around thinking of antikhythera...and its possible use.......how the hell did they make those precise gears..i am a mechanical engg and once i had been working in the gear manufacturing company...and i know what it takes to manufacture a simple looking automobile gear... its a state of art and precision work...maintaining addendums and pressure angles.....its really requires helllova engginering.....

And that's what bothered me (that and the "dead naked women" because after a few years in the sea, they should be skeletons.)

I kept wondering if it was more modern in origin and sank with a more modern boat and ended up elsewhere during the beaking apart of the wreckage.

Dunno. But the precision bothered me (particularly the precision of small brass and the gearing. I know they had larger gears and screws, but the size was... odd.



now we have assumptions about the purpose of antikhythera...lunar based measurement of time....one question comes to mind is why did the ancient civilization was soo much interested in time??
antikhythera mechanism, mayan calendar and their astrologies and astronomies.........and many more......but why time??
why were all the civilizations sooo much cautious of time........ were they expecting something.......dangerous?? cosmic shifts?? were they expecting someone.........aliens?? or was it the theory put forward in every next holllywood movie on ancient civilization....The mummy, ...tomb raider.., fifth element, alien vs predator.............. like some alignment of some devine pieces at some specific split second of time (mostly eclipse ) to gain enourmous energy and power ???

More to the point: why was there just ONE of those things? You'd think there'd be another example or something else that was similar.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 01:36 AM
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Originally posted by sowhat
thanks byrd and vagabond...
it was really of great help.... but my mind started wabbling around thinking of antikhythera...and its possible use.......how the hell did they make those precise gears..i am a mechanical engg and once i had been working in the gear manufacturing company...and i know what it takes to manufacture a simple looking automobile gear... its a state of art and precision work...maintaining addendums and pressure angles.....its really requires helllova engginering.....


Well you're the engineer, so I'll toss my idea out and you tell me. With fine tools (magnifier and razor) and steady hands I could create a template from wood, cast a gear in that which would not be very strong, pour a second template around it from metal or ceramics, and use that second template to forge a gear of decent strength. With a little trial and error I could compensate for the minor size difference from original template to finished product, and there would be your fine gear, after a tremendous investment of time and attention to detail, correct?



now we have assumptions about the purpose of antikhythera...lunar based measurement of time....one question comes to mind is why did the ancient civilization was soo much interested in time??
antikhythera mechanism, mayan calendar and their astrologies and astronomies.........and many more......but why time??


Byrd will have to check me on this because I'm not very familiar with how cultures viewed their astromical interests, however I have my ideas.

Astronomy and astrology, if I remember correctly, had strong religious motives. It was only a matter of time till people started noting little coincidences that linked the cycle of seasons and other events with the cycles in the stars above.
Keeping track of "time" (astronomy actually) was necessary if they wanted to make God happy and plant the crops right and avoid going to sea during the wrong weather conditions etc.



why were all the civilizations sooo much cautious of time........ were they expecting something.......dangerous?? cosmic shifts?? were they expecting someone.........aliens?? or was it the theory put forward in every next holllywood movie on ancient civilization....The mummy, ...tomb raider.., fifth element, alien vs predator.............. like some alignment of some devine pieces at some specific split second of time (mostly eclipse ) to gain enourmous energy and power ???

Well, I dont know if that stuff is -true- or not, but it is easily possible that they were tracking prophecies. Maybe there was a huge disaster and somebody for whatever reason said "this is so huge that it must only happen ever 1,000 years". Well I guess we better keep track of that so that in 999 years we can all head for higher ground, right?



all this is driving me crazy...
i am a newbie...so sometimes i think may be this would be normal for a newbie to get excited and restless........... what abt the supermoderators,moderators, fighters,writers....did u experience the same thing when u first joined ATS ??

The titles are only titles. Every one gets excited about certain things, everyone is right part of the time, everyone is wrong part of the time.
Your post here is actually pretty good for somebody new who is excited about an idea. Sometimes people get an idea in their head and wont let go no matter what. If I had a dime for every new guy who shows up with a thread about Atlantis and takes it personally when not everyone agrees with him. Come to think of it, I've done stuff like that before too.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 09:46 AM
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Not to change the subject exactly but to address the "heap of dead naked women" I think that was just the excited mispoken term the sponge diver used for the statues (of course he also may have thought that there were dead naked women when he saw the statues but the reference was the statues)

Now I have to go back and finish reading about the device...

jm

[edit on 8-1-2005 by justme1640]



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 12:43 PM
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The stars and planets determine the seasons for planting, fishing, when the winter ends and spring begins again.

Imagine not knowing when winter ends. How much food do you need to get through? how much wood to stay warm? etc.. A analog computer
(which is what this was, a differential gear) would be able to calculate the seasons coming and going.

as far as manufacturing this, it would not be difficult. It would be tedious work, you might need to make several gears over again, but it could readily be accomplished. This was the time of greek discovery of geometry and mathematics, this was simply those theories in practice.



Fascination with Time is a common thread for many ancient cultures, as well as our own. People may not realize how dependant we are on the Exact measurement of Time. Everything from satellite communications, targeting of Nuclear warheads, shipping, travel, railroads, everything, depends on knowing exactly what time it is.
Anyone that has been sailing, understands the requirement to know the time; to calculate Lattitudes, and Ebb and FLood Tides, and being able to enter a Harbor as opposed to getting smashed on the rocks.

This Machine must have been quite valuable.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd
More to the point: why was there just ONE of those things? You'd think there'd be another example or something else that was similar.


I think there are several possible explanations for that.
1.) Since they're so old, the others (if there were any) were destroyed throughout time.

2.) It was one guy's personal invention and he only made 1 (or he died before he could make a second)... also possible that since it was found aboard a shipwreck, that the creator made this as a prototype and was testing it on the ship or transporting it somewhere to have more made when the ship sank.

3.) It was construced with the help of someone with the "know how" to do so who then left/died taking that knowledge with them. (possibly ALIENS. sorry, had to say it).



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by Greyhaven7
3.) It was construced with the help of someone with the "know how" to do so who then left/died taking that knowledge with them. (possibly ALIENS. sorry, had to say it).


Well not just any alien. Maybe a REALLY simple minded alien who did something stupid enough to get marooned here on Earth. If full-blown alien contact and tech exchange had occurred I'd be expecting a digital computer- probably uplinked to a network of GPS satellites.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 11:19 PM
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In a hurry tonight, but just wanted to add this link for everyone to read. It's got the Scientific American article on the device:
www.nordex.com...


[edit on 8-1-2005 by Byrd]



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond

Originally posted by Greyhaven7
3.) It was construced with the help of someone with the "know how" to do so who then left/died taking that knowledge with them. (possibly ALIENS. sorry, had to say it).


Well not just any alien. Maybe a REALLY simple minded alien who did something stupid enough to get marooned here on Earth. If full-blown alien contact and tech exchange had occurred I'd be expecting a digital computer- probably uplinked to a network of GPS satellites.


I dunno, maybe they just wanted to give society back then a nudge. I dunno, if I was a supersmart alien I would't want primitive humans with 21 century technology...erm...yeah whatever



posted on Apr, 9 2005 @ 06:40 AM
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BlackGuardXIII presented this link in another thread. It is an interesting read about the device.

www.world-mysteries.com...

In 1959 a guy named Price concluded that it was an astronomical clock able to calculate the positions of the planets and such, but recently a guy named Wright (who has a most killer x-ray machine) discovers a lot more cool stuff.

To me this device fits perfectly in the timeline of things. It makes sense to me that the earliest mechanisms reproduced the motion of celestial bodies, after all, the sun, moon, venus, etc. could be observed.

This device may seem like a techological marvel, and is in fact very impressive, but it remains a somewhat clunky mechanism (by modern standards) and doesn't really point to an advanced ancient civilization.

Modern gear teeth use a shape called an involute. Involutes stay in contact with each other while the gears are turning. The triangular tooth forms of the Antikythera device do not, and are much more primitive in that respect.

Impressive? Very. Alien born? Smarter than us? No.



posted on Apr, 9 2005 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by sardion2000
I dunno, maybe they just wanted to give society back then a nudge. I dunno, if I was a supersmart alien I would't want primitive humans with 21 century technology...erm...yeah whatever


My only problem with that reasoning is well... here we are in the 21st century and now the aliens have allowed primitive humans either to acquire or develop modern technology. I suppose maybe their human monitoring program could have run out of funding, but they certainly dropped the ball in one way or another.



posted on Apr, 9 2005 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
My only problem with that reasoning is well... here we are in the 21st century and now the aliens have allowed primitive humans either to acquire or develop modern technology. I suppose maybe their human monitoring program could have run out of funding, but they certainly dropped the ball in one way or another.


Perhaps it was time to slowly raise the bar? I can believe that, it makes logical sense to start off slow and slowly work up to present times. If we were to look at aliens and compare ourselves to them, we still are pretty primitive.

EDIT: Second thoughts occured to me, maybe they left and returned to find that we were smarter then they had imagined. Serves them right in that case


[edit on 9-4-2005 by Linux]



posted on Apr, 9 2005 @ 08:31 PM
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My initial reaction to that idea is that it is more likely we are stupider than they would hope. Look at the state of our paradise we were left to mind. We decided that rather than be stewards entrusted with its care, we were dominant, free to ransack it without respite. I don't expect that we will garner a favorable rating, should there be a return of some kind to check up on us. The ancients might have been onto something when they almost unanimously predicted that we would fail the examination and face harsh disciplinary action. It would certainly be well earned, and would be almost sure to be a necessity to salvage the skeletal ecosystem that we have left in our gluttonous wake.
But there is always the chance the ancients were misguided, and the only thing we have to do is turn the corner and start to rebuild what we have torn down. Since we cannot even level off our consumption, which increases yearly, and since that level is far beyond sustainability, and has been for decades, I find that prospect slim to none.



posted on Apr, 9 2005 @ 09:53 PM
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I first heard of the Antikythera mechanism on the History Channel, but was unaware that there was any debate on it's origin. They explained other inventions like the odometer were also using gears from the same period. I don't doubt they had the ability to create complex devices. I have made a few electric motors myself, using simple materials. It takes practice and patients, but it can be done.

The point I find the most intriguing is that this knowledge was lost, and not regained until the late 16th Century. The ancient Greeks, were very good at documenting everything. Most was kept at the Library in Alexandria. Alot of the documents were lost in the fires that were set when they were invaded. Because of war, it set mankind back almost two thousand years.



posted on Apr, 10 2005 @ 06:08 AM
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The point I find the most intriguing is that this knowledge was lost, and not regained until the late 16th Century. The ancient Greeks, were very good at documenting everything. Most was kept at the Library in Alexandria. Alot of the documents were lost in the fires that were set when they were invaded. Because of war, it set mankind back almost two thousand years.
Hal 9000

It was not due to war, but a mob of Christian zealots that killed the Head of the Library, Hypatia, and burned the library, in 412.

'When Hypatia's listeners bade her farewell on that evening they did not know that within a few hours they would all become orphans. The next morning, when Hypatia appeared in her chariot in front of her residence, suddenly five hundred men, all dressed in black and cowled, five hundred half-starved monks from the sands of the Egyptian desert -- five hundred monks, soldiers of the cross -- like a black hurricane, swooped down the street, boarded her chariot, and, pulling her off her seat, dragged her by the hair of her head into a -- how shall I say the word? -- into a church! Some historians intimate that the monks asked her to kiss the cross, to become a Christian and join the nunnery, if she wished her life spared. At any rate, these monks, under the leadership of St. Cyril's right-hand man, Peter the Reader, shamefully stripped her naked, and there, close to the alter and the cross, scraped her quivering flesh from her bones with oystershells. The marble floor of the church was sprinkled with her warm blood.'
From:
The Martyrdom of Hypatia (or The Death of the Classical World)
by Mangasar Magurditch Mangasarian



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