NLBS 03.07: Radical Right Wing Terrorism; That's Right, We Said it.

a reply to: okrian

I watched the video, and read most of their "sources", which, at this time(during election season) is kind of stupid to use a source like Media Matters.

This wasn't research. It was a righty bash thread from the get go, and now they are working on a lefty bash thread. Which I'm sure will go over nicely, just like this one did.

Nothing like producing content to make members beat each other over the head with.

I find this debate profoundly unsophisticated. Instead of discussing root problems, its finger pointing. Instead of discussing how we can best combat terrorism and interject the radicalization problem, its finger pointing. Instead of coming together and realizing that terrorists don't care AT ALL about our internal debates and that all they wanna do is F'ing kill us, we get more finger pointing.

When does it stop?

a reply to: projectvxn

If our genuine wish is to end terror, then acting without debate and discussion, and most crucially, thought, is not going to avail the species of anything positive, when the dust settles. Pointing fingers is surely wasteful, but we must know ourselves well before we can understand and counteract our enemies. If we ignore the propaganda and absorb it into our consciousness regardless of the threat it poses to our reason, how can we expect the outcome of our actions and those of our nations representatives to be anything else than negative?

If we allow ourselves to be blinded, how can we properly aim the arrow of justice into the foul heart of corruption which drives all this bloodshed, and marches us closer to tyranny with every step? These discussions are meant to open our eyes, to allow us to see the blade clenched in the hidden fist, the better to avoid its edge and disarm the opponents of freedom, where ever, and whomever they might be.

a reply to: TrueBrit

But that isn't what was discussed. Its a politicized post with little to offer in terms of substance.

What is the root cause of Right Wing terrorism? Abortion? Donald Trump? Fox News? Guns?

Are you kidding me?

You can't be serious about the meaning of this post and tell me with a straight face that the discussion started here is a sophisticated one. It isn't.

What's the root of Islamic terrorism? Are we addressing the radicalization process? When's the last time we talked about Political Islam and its influence on creating Islamic terrorism world wide. When's the last time we discussed the need for fundamental reformation in Islam and the separation of mosque and state?

What is it about some Christian groups that have radicalized? Joel's Army comes to mind. What is it in their ideology and world view that has created a perceived need for their existence?

What about the definition of terrorism? Why is the term used so loosely when it has a clearly defined meaning?

Were these questions posed and answered in the original post? No! It was some dude using political propaganda to start a fight on ATS.

a reply to: projectvxn

Every thread is what we make it.

If you think that a threads OP is deliberately divisive, then it is up to you to refuse to be baited, and make YOUR contribution as sophisticated or useful to the wider debate, as possible. That has always been the case around here.

a reply to: projectvxn

There is no separation of 'mosque and state'. There is an entire political system in place to protect muslims abroad. They can build mosques everywhere, no biggie! Let's completely leave out muslim 'terrorism' abroad, it shouldn't even be discussed, even though that is INSANE.

Yet everyone wants to rid the world of Christian values and have no problem suggesting the destruction of that. Christians are terrorists, that's cool, it's trendy, let's keep making them the bad guy because they are the bad guys here.

Dude, as frustrating as this is, we have to call it quits and just let it happen. This BS has to begin now so it can end ASAP.

Is there a benefit to Americans by identifying Dear's ideology and making a thread about this subject? I'm kinda missing the point on how this topic is a beneficial counterweight to Sharia Law Terrorists and how it impacts Americans. Unless it's for drama and entertainment purposes, then I guess it serves a purpose then.

So we have an enemy overseas and there are Americans who feel their response should be to compare an overseas enemy to right wing Americans that have recently commit a crime? How is this beneficial to Americans? What purpose does this point serve? I really don't get why this topic is all over the news and now here on ATS as a top thread?

Can anyone explain to me how labeling Dear as a right wing extremist is beneficial or even relevant in the face of an enemy overseas or why it keeps getting brought up in response to Americas enemies?

The only people I can think of that would benefit from the subject would be enemies of Americans.

a reply to: TrueBrit

The problem is with the religion itself and the belief systems that can be led to the extremes. It may be true that no "true" Muslims or "true" Christians will resort to terrorist acts, the fact remains that there are propaganda machines going on strong from both far right Christian and Islamic wing folks vilifying the actions of the left wing folks and organizations and even encouraging violence on them.

originally posted by: Wookiep
a reply to: projectvxn

There is no separation of 'mosque and state'. There is an entire political system in place to protect muslims abroad. They can build mosques everywhere, no biggie! Let's completely leave out muslim 'terrorism' abroad, it shouldn't even be discussed, even though that is INSANE.

You are right, that would be insane, but I do not believe that anyone is suggesting that we not discuss the issue. Some are suggesting that we discuss the issues with more intellectual honesty than we have previously, but that would require a certain willingness to engage with the process without inserting unrealistic and biased world views into the discussion, given the exclusively divisive and unhelpful nature of those world views.

Yet everyone wants to rid the world of Christian values and have no problem suggesting the destruction of that. Christians are terrorists, that's cool, it's trendy, let's keep making them the bad guy because they are the bad guys here.

This is outrageous. This is precisely the sort of either/or binary nonsense that we need less of. First of all, let's be clear. The actions of people who shoot holes in, and blow up unarmed people are not those of a Christian person. Second of all, saying as much, and being angry with the INDIVIDUALS who attempt to shield themselves from responsibility for their actions by claiming an association with the almighty is LEGITIMATE! It does not, however, mean that persons who are justly angry with the loonies who shoot people for no good reason, want to prevent the just worship of Christ. That is an argument which holds precisely no water.

Dude, as frustrating as this is, we have to call it quits and just let it happen. This BS has to begin now so it can end ASAP.

Throwing ones hands up is no solution either. Learning the difference between opposing fundamentalist violence, and opposing the existence of faiths, moral convictions informed by them, and so on, will be crucial to preventing the spread of division and hatred amongst the people of the world going forward. One can either involve oneself in the process of improving the level of nuance and sophistication present in the understanding of the issues, held by the man in the street, or one can promote continuing ignorance and by extension, violence, impoverishment, war, and callous disregard for others based on entirely irrelevant demographic information.

Failing to confront bias and treat it like the bane it is, will not gain future members of human civilisation, any advantage over their ancestors what so ever, and if we want to see a future for our children and our descendants further down the way, we have to start being smart and being compassionate and HONEST about the way we reason these things out.

a reply to: Deaf Alien
The problem then, is the existence of the propaganda machinery, rather than the word of the holy books held dear by the worshipers of those faiths, or the fact that those faiths have many followers.

Identifying the root of the propaganda (not to be found in the religions themselves by the way) is crucial to cutting off its source.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Deaf Alien
The problem then, is the existence of the propaganda machinery, rather than the word of the holy books held dear by the worshipers of those faiths, or the fact that those faiths have many followers.

Identifying the root of the propaganda (not to be found in the religions themselves by the way) is crucial to cutting off its source.

Well said.

28 pages in and they still don't get it.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: okrian

I watched the video, and read most of their "sources", which, at this time(during election season) is kind of stupid to use a source like Media Matters.

This wasn't research. It was a righty bash thread from the get go, and now they are working on a lefty bash thread. Which I'm sure will go over nicely, just like this one did.

Nothing like producing content to make members beat each other over the head with.

I find this debate profoundly unsophisticated. Instead of discussing root problems, its finger pointing. Instead of discussing how we can best combat terrorism and interject the radicalization problem, its finger pointing. Instead of coming together and realizing that terrorists don't care AT ALL about our internal debates and that all they wanna do is F'ing kill us, we get more finger pointing.

When does it stop?

From the looks of things the U.S has become divided. To those with eyes that sees patterns, the division occurring now within the U.S is no different than the one placed within ukraine. (Inspired by George soros).

Left or right, both sides are being played with. Hence why it is wise to side with neither, and instead look at the source of the problems.

You know what, I'm going to self-delete this post. Never mind. I don't even want to bother with this thread.

a reply to: Wookiep

Let's completely leave out muslim 'terrorism' abroad, it shouldn't even be discussed, even though that is INSANE.

Yeah right Muslim extremism is virtually all you hear about through the media.

Yet everyone wants to rid the world of Christian values and have no problem suggesting the destruction of that.

No one here has said anything about destroying Christianity but Christians do need to realize they don't rule the world and cannot expect it to live by their values.

Christians are terrorists, that's cool, it's trendy, let's keep making them the bad guy because they are the bad guys here.

There are Christian terrorist all around the world just like Muslim terrorist and it's time people started admitting it.

Preface: Propaganda machinery. Right. And yet many of those posting on this thread don't realize this is precisely what this subject is, what this thread is. Projectvxn is correct in his assessment of this. This thread only exists to generate conflict between members to boost stats. Know that, and that the author is delighted and getting pats on the back that he has succeeded. Job well done.

(I suppose) I am a progressive liberal Democrat. I am not a frothing at the mouth, ready to eat you alive progressive however). Let me make that clear in case there are any questions about that. I am simultaneously able to see when I am being manipulated; led down a path that will inevitably lead me to the designated artifacts to piecemeal into the desired object. They can put ribbons on it, put perfume on it, but it still reeks of shabby manipulation. (Enough of that.)

Long before there was a United States, there were people who had developed a civilization in the ME. They were the very same peoples. They shared a common ancestry, ate the same food, worshiped the same God, struggled with the same daily problems. They were the SAME people. They eventually divided into sects, and began growing apart. Some of them became extremely wealthy, and closed themselves off from the others, but most of them remained poor.

But the small differences overshadowed any of the myriad of commonalities they shared. The small differences consumed them. They began to obsess on them, until the differences became such an overwhelming obsession, they began to hate each other, and started attacking each other and then attacking entire villages, then other countries, until it was a land of complete unrest and conflict; even war. It remains such until this day. The very SAME people. Disregarding their multitude of commonalities, and focusing only on their differences. It's ripped them apart.

My fear is that instead of our helping them to see this, they are the ones whose behaviors WE are adopting. See it in this thread. See it all over the internet and on television. Is there right wing machinery? Of course. Left wing? Sure.

It hasn't come from any of us small fries on this thread. It's coming from the BIG DOGS. The people who actually run our two parties, and frankly it's possible we've never even heard their names.

So we are in the process of dividing into our sects, and the obsessing has begun. The contempt has begun.

Get up in the morning, stretch, yawn, have your coffee, mount Roscinate, and begin your day of fighting windmills.

The world has a true threat now. True terrorists, and yet we are fighting among ourselves, as though we ourselves are the enemy. The enemy is not Republicans. The enemy is not Democrats, and it's not the Muslims who have been here for decades, it's not Jews, and it's not Christians.

Just because there are those who want us to hate each other, and kill each other, and maybe even start destroying each other and each other's villages, doesn't mean we have to. I'm not going there. I invite you to not go there with me.

a reply to: projectvxn

This thread is about Right-wing, Christian Terrorism. This is a thing that actually happens as you've acknowledged. No one came in here to attack Christians or Right-wingers. Some people came in here to talk about why no one talks about it, why we as Americans can't acknowledge this. Some people came in to point fingers in every other direction. Some people came in to play the victim card. A lot of heated back and forth took place.

I don't see a single post bashing right-wingers or Christians.

a reply to: theNLBS

This presentation has accomplished nothing.

Instead of being informative, you have spewed out stuff that has been repeated over and over in countless threads in the past weeks. Not really gonna change anybody's mind!

Here's an idea... why not make a presentation about the 70 year old secret black budget and its effects being, the global economic meltdown (among other things). Sure it would mean you need to do your homework, lots of it. Which is probably why you havent done it till now. either way i find it hard to believe you would even be able to comprehend or encompass that topic, fully, the way you do with other topics that are minor in comparison.

There is no bigger BS on Earth right now than the secret black budget that has garnered more than 118 trillion dollars in 70 years... yet you have never spoken about it!

Such garbage, there are probably more left wing terrorist events than right wing. Geez look at the stats on eco terrorism alone. Its like 2 Anti-Abortion murders compared to 40 eco terrorist events according to the FBI's own data from 2000-2005. Further, it is hard to even take the government statistics seriously when it comes to Islamic Terrorism when they categorize anything they can anything BUT terror. For instance, the Fort Hood massacre is work place violence.

Often times as well, whenever a white person does a terrorist act it seems they just label him "right-wing". For example, Jared Loughner loved Karl Marx and The Communist Manifesto, but apparently he is classified as right wing, because of reasons.

The Aurora shooter, voted democrat consistently, but is considered right wing. The IRS plane attack, democrat, but considered right-wing terrorism. It goes on and on and on.

Further, why does it even matter. Domestic terrorism is different, they are citizens, we can't block them from entering. Islam however, we seem to want to import it into the United States and anyone with half a brain knows that Islam is much worse, by far much worse than anything right wing in America.

This whole comparing Christians to Muslims is such a tired old trick that no one with a sensible brain cares to hear. I am an atheist, and I can guarantee you most of us atheist know that Christians are much better to live around than Muslims. Muslim apologetics are such bs, further proportionally matters, the Muslim population of the United States is minuscule, and they are extremely over represented in terms of terrorist attacks. Comparing 50%+ of the population to 1% of the population and proclaiming as if by miracle that the 50% is committing more crimes is surprising is dubious at best.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: projectvxn

This thread is about Right-wing, Christian Terrorism. This is a thing that actually happens as you've acknowledged. No one came in here to attack Christians or Right-wingers. Some people came in here to talk about why no one talks about it, why we as Americans can't acknowledge this. Some people came in to point fingers in every other direction. Some people came in to play the victim card. A lot of heated back and forth took place.

I don't see a single post bashing right-wingers or Christians.

"No one talks about it" Are you kidding, its all you hear. The reason most of the world doesn't talk about it, is because its a non-issue. There have been two killings of abortion doctors in 10 years, I hardly feel thats news worthy when Muslims commit terrorist acts every single day

And these stats are always so stupid. They usually go from 1970-2015. SERIOUSLY, thats your timeline. For instance one study that told us that Muslims aren't the terrorist we all know they are stated:

Between 1970 and 2011, 32 percent of the perpetrator groups were motivated by ethnonationalist/separatist agendas, 28 percent were motivated by single issues, such as animal rights or opposition to war, and seven percent were motivated by religious beliefs. In addition, 11 percent of the perpetrator groups were classified as extreme right-wing, and 22 percent were categorized as extreme left-wing.

Preliminary findings from PPT-US data between 1970 and 2011 also illustrate a distinct shift in the dominant ideologies of these terrorist groups over time, with the proportion of emerging ethnonationalist/separatist terrorist groups declining and the proportion of religious terrorist groups increasing. However, while terrorist groups with religious ideologies represent 40 percent of all emergent groups from 2000-2011 (two out of five), they only account for seven percent of groups over time

They also added that between 1980-2005

According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%). These radical Jews committed acts of terrorism in the name of their religion. These were not terrorists who happened to be Jews; rather, they were extremist Jews who committed acts of terrorism based on their religious passions, just like Al-Qaeda and company.

Yeah, sure - its those pesky Jewish terrorist. Give me a break

originally posted by: Kali74
You nailed it...

Might want to pop an umbrella for the flooding tears that are surely coming.

I'm a bit late to the party but I brought popcorn.

Even though I don't acknowledge the illusion of left vs right I still think this was a great episode with many points I agree with.

The tears go great with popcorn.