Weaponry for Home Defence in the UK

a reply to: boymonkey74

But that would indeed appear to be a valid reason for having such a thing on your person. And like you said the younger officer was probably right up for a arresting you(brownie points thing). Should the older more senior officer not have intervened and given the younger officer more of a free rain things may not have transpired in the same manner. See the older dude probably knows how to spot a potential idiot where as the younger officer is gungho. The moral of the storey being experience trumps youth 9 times out of 10.

a reply to: andy06shake

See that's the whole point of the discussion as far as I see it, "a valid reason" when asked about anything which could be potentially used as a weapon. If asked why a particular item happens to be wherever it is in your house or on your person then only the stupidest of fools say it is for potential use in self defence. That is illegal, purely by intent.

I said previously in the thread I've got all sorts of potential incidental weapons laying around my man-cave, chisels, axe, hatchet, knives, wrecking bars, hammers, foot long maglight, nailgun, crossbow, all held legally and useful tools.
Of course none of them are stored or held by me "for the purpose of self defence" they are just useful tools which happen to be laying around in various places at my home.

I have a favourite trowel which I keep nice and sharp at the corners, sure it could easily be used to slash a face and would also be excellent as a blocking hand tool to defend against someone coming at me with a knife, but that has never been my intention of keeping the tool, it is for plastering walls.

Take a heavy frying pan as an example, say I was walking through town and a cop asked "Why do you have that frying pan?" and I replied for the purpose of self defence, then that would be an offence. If I replied that I'm off to my mates later and giving him a spare frying pan of mine, then that would not be an offence.

Certainly that is the case in England & Wales, I know nothing about Scottish law and nor do I wish to as I have no intention of ever living there.

...I walked through town into my bank the other week with a tool belt holding (amongst other stuff) a sharp chisel, a claw hammer, a stanley knife, mini wrecking bar, and a nailgun, passed a cop who took no notice of me because I was obviously working. Now, had I been a chav looking youth in a hoody then I imagine it would attract attention, but even then, say that chavvy looking youth was delivering his dad the tools he'd forgotten that day then no offence.

It is ALL about intention and reasons, so I say again, only a half wit would say "for the purpose of self defence" to a police officer. Anyone that thick deserves to get nicked in my opinion, it'll teach them to investigate the legislation next time.

a reply to: grainofsand

When we have to lie to our own Police officers through regarding our own self defense issues for fear of incriminating ourselves, in my opinion something has got to be wrong with the law.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: grainofsand

When we have to lie to our own Police officers through regarding our own self defense issues for fear of incriminating ourselves, in my opinion something has got to be wrong with the law.

Who is lying? Certainly not me, many years ago when I fully understood the law (after stabbing a burglar and not even getting a caution) I held and continue to hold a mindset that no items on my person, or in my home were for the 'purpose of self defence' just merely items I wished to own for entertainment/amusement/hobby/work/general interest purposes.

However, I will use ANY incidental weapon to hand if I am in a situation where through fear of physical attack I need to defend myself.
The thread is about 'home' defence, and there are many things I can use for defence in my home, I just don't own them for that specific reason. It's not rocket science fella, I'm happy enough with current legislation in the UK, it's all about intent.
And yep, if anyone is thick as # enough to tell a cop that they possess an item for self defence purposes then no sympathy from me, Law in England & Wales is published well by the government.

...I carry a bottle of wine from the off-license in my hand through a dodgy estate sometimes, I hold it by the neck because it is comfortable to carry. The fact that that carry position makes it easier to use as an incidental self defence weapon is irrelevant, it is not my intention, I'm just walking home with a bottle I wish to drink at home, and saving the environment by not using a plastic bag.

*Edit*
I also walk home in the dark wee hours sometimes from house parties, and when leaving the venue my foot long maglight comes out of my bag into my hand. My reasons for carrying it are purely because many roads/paths are unlit, even in main streets where lights go out after 1AM.
Again, the fact that the maglight could indeed be used as an incidental self defence weapon is irrelevant, I am carrying it so I don't step in dog # or trip on an unlit pavement. All that matters is intent as far as the law is concerned.

a reply to: grainofsand

I bet through if you stabbed a burglar in this day of age there would be numerous questions. Which if you did not provide the correct pc answers to could potentially land you in a lot of trouble. Plus think we have discussed this before, you made sure the guy was ok and not dying until the Police arrived.

As to the Maglight I use one myself late at night when I take the dog out. Never had to use it for anything other than it's intended purpose through.

a reply to: andy06shake

Shouldn't there be questions if someone gets stabbed? I think so. The Police do not, as yet, have the ability to read minds and we all tell lies on occasion. If the story is consistent, and there are no other signs of intent, the Police have better things to do and very little resources to do them at the best of times, and as never before have they been as publically accountable to justify how, where and why they use those resources.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: grainofsand

I bet through if you stabbed a burglar in this day of age there would be numerous questions. Which if you did not provide the correct pc answers to could potentially land you in a lot of trouble. Plus think we have discussed this before, you made sure the guy was ok and not dying until the Police arrived.

As to the Maglight I use one myself late at night when I take the dog out. Never had to use it for anything other than it's intended purpose through.

I would follow a reasonable force course of action and articulate that well in all investigations.
I hope I'll never be in that situation again but I'm confident that if the same happened tonight then I would see a similar outcome.
Yes I tended the wound of the burglar, wrapping a towel round him where the knife went through his shoulder/upper arm area out the back, I was no longer at risk so he deserved my duty of care as a human being.
The stupid #s who get charged for stuff like that, stab the burglar multiple times, and/or stamp on heads etc when they are no longer at risk.

Reasonable force rules in the UK are fine as far as I'm concerned, it's all about defence, and when one removes the risk the law says you must stop.
Can you not see that reasonable force laws are good for society?
I say tough # to people who see red mist, lose control and 'punish' attackers when they have disabled the risk. It is up to the courts and/or the Crown Prosecution Service to decide that.
Scotland and Police Scotland specifically sounds pretty # and oppressive.

I have no fear of using incidental weapons with reasonable force to defend myself, I feel sorry for you if you are too scared to defend yourself. The law in England and Wales allows us to, I've experienced the justice system in similar situations many times. Glad I am not governed by Scottish law from what you make out.

a reply to: Anaana

I agree, it is right that a society's justice system asks questions in incidents of violence, defensive or otherwise.
As I said above, the stupid twats who get convicted are the ones who tell the police lines like "The bastard got what he deserved" or whatever, and carry out a course of action which involves a sustained beating or multiple stabs when the risk has been removed.

I'm happy with the law as it stands in England and Wales but then it is pretty straightforward, have a reasonable explanation for why an incidental weapon happened to be close to yourself when a violent event occurs, and only use reasonable force to defend yourself.
Heck, I taught my son that from the age of primary school, it ain't rocket science, it's about being able to interpret the law and stay legal.
I don't really care if other #ty parents fail to understand publicly posted laws by the judiciary and government applying to England and Wales. It's their feral offspring who will do time, not mine.

originally posted by: grainofsand
I don't really care if other #ty parents fail to understand publicly posted laws by the judiciary and government applying to England and Wales. It's their feral offspring who will do time, not mine.

Ah ya say that, but the roll down, economically, is phenomenal, and I think that society has to take a wider responsibility for Children by ensuring that they are adequately able to navigate the socio-economic and bureaucratic systems that facilitate this thing we call "modern living". Leaving children behind simply because they had the misfortune to be born to # parents is hardly progressive. and it most definately is not sustainable.

a reply to: grainofsand

Personally i think if you break into someone else's home with the intention of robbing the place you should take what you get.

If it was my home and i managed to catch the suckers, there ether putting me down, or lets just say they are never going to play the Piano again.

Laws may be laws, but the safety and sanctity of any family home, in my book anyway, supersedes such silly notions.

Fact is if your home get screwed around these here parts the Police probably wont turn up on time to prevent the act occurring. So essentially your options are to act or sit there and get robbed, even potently raped and murdered. With kids and a Mrs to think about i know which option i would choose.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: grainofsand

Personally i think if you break into someone else's home with the intention of robbing the place you should take what you get.

I agree, but I don't write the law so I comply so I don't ever find myself in prison.
I was happy with the 8" kitchen knife through the burglars shoulder though, he stopped burgling, I was no longer at risk of harm, and he was wailing like a new born lamb.

If it was my home and i managed to catch the suckers, there ether putting me down, or lets just say they are never going to play the Piano again.

If your course of action was one of defence then you would stay within the law. Cut the guys fingers off after you have removed the risk of harm to yourself or others then the law will # you up.

Laws may be laws, but the safety and sanctity of any family home, in my book anyway, supersedes such silly notions.

Fact is if your home get screwed around these here parts the Police probably wont turn up on time to prevent the act occurring. So essentially your options are to act or sit there and get robbed, even potently raped and murdered. With kids and a Mrs to think about i know which option i would choose.

No, your options are to use reasonable force to protect yourself or others from harm. You can really hurt someone with whatever is at hand if you can show that it was reasonable and born solely of fear for yourself or others.

You sound like your actions would be inspired by 'citizen justice' and while I might agree with such a stance in a country where that was legal I would not recommend it in the UK, the courts will # you up for that, so I would not advise stating it like that in any future police interview.
I would also say it is unwise to express such sentiment online...just in case.

Me, I'm a good little worker bee who complies with all aspects of reasonable force law under the legal system of England and Wales. The framework we have right now is easy to work with and quite clear to understand.
I see no reason to change it, but then I have little problem negotiating it when I have to.

a reply to: Anaana

Not my issue, I'm not a child protection social worker.
#ty parents, and their offspring are the predominant producers of burglars and violent criminals so it is a justice issue that is nothing to do with me if they are not robbing me.
I pay my taxes for welfare services which help Jeremy Kyle type families (UK Jerry Springer for US members) I don't give a toss aside from that.
Children are starving all over the world and I'm expected to find a tear for feral kids in £120 trainers with an iPhone?!
Behave.

a reply to: grainofsand

You dont need to cut them off, but breaking them several times seems rather appropriate.

The way i see it is simply to treat people in this world how you find them, and if you find them in you home unannounced and on the blag, well im not about to wait around to find out if the thief is nasty or nice, especially so at this time of year.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: grainofsand

You dont need to cut them off, but breaking them several times seems rather appropriate.

The way i see it is simply to treat people in this world how you find them, and if you find them in you home unannounced and on the blag, well im not about to wait around to find out if the thief is nasty or nice, especially so at this time of year.

Appropriate is a wholly different beast to legally sanctioned.
Breaking fingers in a punishment style is not allowed in the law of England and Wales. You find a way to carry out such a course of action where you can show that it was reasonable then go for your life, I wouldn't care personally or grass you up, but I would advise against it.
'The law' is quite sound as I see it, an intellectual minefield, but quite sound if one is not thick as pig#.

a reply to: grainofsand

I would not do it other than someone breaking and entering. If that happens the law is not a priority to me anymore. Im not about to turn the bastard over to the Police only to see them walking the same street as myself and children a few days later because they have been bailed. The idiot Police dont even care if they are bailed to an address in the same area these days.

To be honest i have known of worse things to happen to people caught in the act breaking and entering, its not beyond certain individuals to kidnap and torcher the fools then dump them in the back of a van and drop them off in the sticks a few days down the line. After all what are they going to do? There happy to still be alive and its not like they could go to the Police.

Just to point out i would never do that myself but that's what can happen if you end up screwing the wrong persons house.

a reply to: KingDoey

Being from the UK too I'm quite aware of the situation regarding self defense in this country. For starters forget about carrying weapons or even using any weapons full stop. All this will achieve is a prison sentence for your efforts. Also its good to remember whatever you use can be used against you and your family so realistically that's not going to be the best option.

A dogs good to have around even if its quite soft. Remember in a given situation even a seemingly harmless dog will stand up for its family members. An aggressive dog is no good to anyone and someone breaking in won't know your dog's temperament.

I'd forget about most of the exotic Martial Arts that have been mentioned on here. They're probably good for getting the average person fit and developing some degree of self discipline and they look good in the cinema. Unfortunately in a life and death situation if you have to rely on them then you're going to be in the world of trouble. All they're good for is luring people into a false sense of security.

Start training, getting yourself fit is a good start, if your not already. If you feel you need to learn to take care of yourself then a good place to begin will be your local boxing gym. It shouldn't cost you a fortune and most of these places if they're half decent are run by people that have proper experience in realistic life situations and know how to handle themselves. and there's plenty of them about to choose from.

All the best.

Morgs

a reply to: blackcrowe

I think that if it ever came to the point where you need to fire a crossbow at someone to protect your family then the police would be the last of your worries...

a reply to: Wide-Eyes

I was just offering some advice on the implications of buying weapons in the UK. Point being. The dealers are obliged to inform the police of the transaction.
I certainly didn't say go buy one.
But, yes. You're absolutely right. If it did get to that point. Police wouldn't be an issue.

originally posted by: blackcrowe
a reply to: Wide-Eyes

I was just offering some advice on the implications of buying weapons in the UK. Point being. The dealers are obliged to inform the police of the transaction.
I certainly didn't say go buy one.
But, yes. You're absolutely right. If it did get to that point. Police wouldn't be an issue.

Why would you be worried that the police know you have a legally held crossbow?
So long as it is not owned for the purpose of self defence it is legal, and if it ever was used as an incidental weapon for the purpose of self defence then consideration of reasonable force would be the legal question, not the tool used, same as if you knocked a knife wielding man out with a frying pan. Was it reasonable or not?

I couldn't give a toss who knows that I own a crossbow, it is legally held, and not for the purposes of self defence...but like any other item in my home it could be an incidental weapon if circumstances forced such a situation. Certainly not the reason I own it though.

a reply to: grainofsand

I'm not worried.
Was just making a point.
When the shtf. All those legally owned weapons will be forcefully confiscated. And, they know where they all are.