Note The Difference

My opinion:
Video 1: Probably could have subdued him with tazers. No shirt makes it easier for the barbs to stick. If that didn't work, then shoot him...many times.

Video 2: Good way of handling a terrorist. If he's still alive he can be interrogated.

Video 3: Murder.

Video 4: Very lucky cops. Had this man known how to use that weapon, there would have been pieces of LEO all over the road.

I'm all for assisted suicide. And suicide-by-cop is a valid means of attaining the goal of auto-termination.

-dex

originally posted by: hangedman13

Do you think the cops are ninjas? Being in close quarters with a guy with a knife is the worst place to be.Not to mention at that range using a gun is tricky, at that kind of range you are more likely to shoot through someone into another person. Once a person go's out with a weapon and starts threatening people it doesn't matter what his family or friends think. They become a public menace and well being shot is on the table for the outcome.

They do have training on how to handle, subdue and arrest someone though. Plus they have back up, an array of weapons and tools, etc. Also what close quarters are you talking about??? They're in the street. The guy is walking around and they have him surrounded. They aren't supposed to be shooting people unless that is all that is left or they are in direct danger. In fact one cop is doing just that when he tazed him but the other cop freaks out and shoots the guy. Why??? Who's in charge of the situation??? Who's in control there??? Why bother tazing the guy if you're shooting him anyway??? Obviously someone doesn't know what they're doing.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

Case in point--ignorance. Do you train with knives? Do you train in knife defenses? Do you train with firearms? Do you train in firearm defenses?

I've trained with firearms but not knives. But this isn't about me is it??? The cops who were there are supposed to be trained for this kind of thing. Knives have been around for a long time and it's not like a situation like this hasn't happened before but in the past not everyone got shot like this so what's changed???

I don't care if anyone takes what I say seriously--how people view my comment does not negate its veracity. And in case you ever wonder, more often than not, the most dangerous individual with a knife is one who does not have any honed knife skills.

I'd say the most dangerous person is the cop without training.

Review the video again--the officers did back up a few feet each time the suspect moved closer and closer toward them. But like I said, I would have preferred to see them let the tazer do its work and then arrest and disarm, if possible. But it didn't happen, and legally I'd bet money that the shooting was/is justified based on the suspect's own actions. You'll note that the tazer and firearm were discharge when he raised the knife in the direction of what looks to be the female officer...after giving him an abundance of time to put the weapon down AND while allowing him to continually advance upon them.

Like I said, at some point, the suspect has to have the appropriate personal responsibility placed on his own shoulders.

Exactly, even you admit it should have been a different outcome. He may have raised the knife but he's got one hand on the vehicle and looks to be about to give up. Plus why shoot him when he's being tazed??? That makes no sense. It's one guy with a knife in the open. That shouldn't be ending like this but every day we see the same thing happening. Shoot first because your scared and work it out later if at all.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

But is use of deadly force on the rise? the folks at USA Today think so.
WASHINGTON — The number of felony suspects fatally shot by police last year — 461— was the most in two decades, according to a new FBI report
www.usatoday.com...

I don't know if you are currently a LEO but Is there something new or different in the training??, mind you I choose similar situations of not so innocent guys with knives, and yes I know only senior cops in England carry guns so off course guns deaths would be much lower but in the same measure a premium is put on keeping everyone alive even at personal risk. something in "my view" not common in the U.S

a reply to: jjkenobi

So... you missed the point entirely.

Take a listen from someone who was on the inside and admits to once being part of the problem himself but is now trying to wake people up and change the system.

a reply to: Spider879

I note that if you are not being a complete and total moron and committing crimes you will not be shot or tasered.

Thank you for the reminder.

originally posted by: PresidentCamacho
a reply to: Spider879

I note that if you are not being a complete and total moron and committing crimes you will not be shot or tasered.

Thank you for the reminder.

Some people are morons some are criminals but it's not them with whom I am concerned with right now, it's the response of those who have authority to take a life or not take a life, and why in similar societies there are such stark differences in results and approach.
And your are welcome.

a reply to: Spider879

While I no longer train as any sort of military or law-enforcement officer, I am active in firearm and self-defense/martial arts training where officers participate and I am friends with a few officers and military and we discuss the training that they do on a regular basis. So, while I'm knowledgeable in the training, I'm not an expert or currently am not active in police training to know all of the specifics as to how or if it really has trained in the last few years.

I can tell you, though, that I keep hearing that the conduct of suspects during many arrests and detentions has become unnecessarily brazen and anti-authoritarian. I don't know if it's because the nogoodniks of America look up all of these know-your-rights videos on YouTube and think that they have the right to act like jackasses now or what, but there seems to be a growing apathy toward acting appropriately when being questioned about a possible crime...often on the sides of the suspect and the police officer.

In my own opinion on the overall situation in the states, I think that there is blame to go around on many sides--I think that some police departments, especially the ones in the highly populated urban areas, tend to protect one another over their duty to protect the public (not all cops, but enough to give that impression); I think that too many officers approach every situation with too much assertiveness and not enough respect for the innocent-until-proven-guilty individual with whom they are interacting; I think that a certain swath of citizenry (mainly the sub-30-years-old crowd) have grown up with a sense of entitlement that leads them to believe that they can act any way that they choose without there being any consequences; I think the legal system is too lenient on police officers when they use excessive force, especially when death is involved (they should be held to a more strict standard, not a more lax one); and I think that the average citizen is too ignorant to the laws that govern with police can and cannot do, and that we need to start respectfully asserting our rights as individuals when police are involved.

There are other things that I have issues with--the overuse of "militarized" police units, lack of good investigative work before kicking some doors in, properly training our young LEOs to have more respect for human life and that it's okay to get in a fist fight if it means that the suspect won't end up dead, etc, but I'm also intelligent enough to know that the average American city or town has decent people as their LEOs, and that these concerns do not reach out to all LEOs in every place. That's why I'm always careful to not generalize and stereotype law enforcement--plus, I know the stressors that come with that job, and realize that every time they approach someone, there is always that potential that they won't be going home to see their family that day.

But as to your point, I agree that every single law enforcement agency should be emphasizing the fragility of and respect for human life, and that--just as it is with concealed weapon carriers--the use of a firearm should be the last possible resort.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Man thank you very much for a very candid non Bs response , the problem is indeed multi faceted and both uniform and civilians are equally stressed to the breaking point but as is the case peacekeeping is the responsibility of the cops, so If today you were appointed GOD of LEO training, looking back at current history of mishaps what would you teach your new recruits with an eye for both keeping themselves safer and the civilians they encounter, Iam sorry I am picking on you for solutions but you are the closest one to that community online here that I know of.

a reply to: Spider879

Well, there are a few LEOs among our midst, but I can't recall who they are at the moment.

Anyhoo, as for LEO training, I would:

- Emphasize public safety
- Increase reliance (and, therefore, training) on hand-to-hand combat, akin to something like Krav Maga that teaches (mostly) non-lethal ways to defend one's self with aggressive and quick takedowns in lieu of always pulling a gun first
- Instill the value of all human life in each and every officer as best that I could
- Better train officers on constitutional rights and what they can and cannot do, and would err on the side of individual rights over an aggressive police state
- Mandate the use of tazers as a first reaction whenever possible, to include mandating that ALL officers be tazed quarterly (where I'm at, it's voluntary if officers get tazed)
- Support more frequent friendly interaction with the citizens in the communities that officers patrol, spending just as much time hanging out and getting to know people when not on an active call as patrolling around in a police car looking for people who forget to use a blinker before turning
- Deploy a random drug-testing program that would hit every officer at least once within a year, if those don't exist already
- And above all else, I would remind officers that they are NOT above the law in any given situation. Ever. And I would remind them at the beginning of every shift change.

These are just off the top of my head concerning things that I've thought about over the years. But please remember that I have just as many types of things that I wish the general public could be schooled in as well concerning what the police can and cannot do, educate on the stressors and unknowns that exist at EVERY interaction police have with individuals, etc., etc. I think that the changes and education need to exist on both sides of the coin for the problem to get fixed.

But like I said, I think that, on average, most cities have police forces that do an adequate-to-decent job protecting and serving their citizens, but much of this that I mentioned could go a long way into bettering even the best police departments.

That's all I have for now.

No it's not...ETA: You also have to remember that, sometimes, keeping the peace means having to battle one or more individuals who are doing something illegal and stupid. Not all peacekeeping missions go as planned and abstain from deadly force. Even though I wish that every LEO interaction resulted in just a warning or hauling off someone to jail, the reality in life is that the human factor on both the suspect and the LEO's side dictates that this will never happen. Reality also shows that it's usually the actions of the suspect that makes a LEO use deadly force. Usually.