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NYT: Americans With Assault Rifles Should 'Give Them Up For The Good Of Their Fellow Citizens'

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posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:02 AM
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a reply to: ForteanOrg

I'm not downplaying anything. You want facts? I just provided them. The simple fact is that US suicide rates are in line with most other western nations and lower than some that have strict gun laws. Its also a fact that only slightly more than half of all US suicides involve a firearm.

To that extent, I don't agree with conflating suicides with homicides, because those facts strongly suggest that strict gun laws do not affect suicide rates.
edit on 7-12-2015 by vor78 because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:03 AM
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originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Metallicus

And as a (often stated) "law abiding citizen" you'd just hand them right over? Amarite?

Of course not.


Not to mention to make it illegal they'd need a whole new amendment, and funnily enough I know enough about that to know they don't currently nor ever will have the congressional/senate/house numbers to pull off a re writing of the second.




So, who's gonna take em?


Aliens?
The UN?
Soviet Russian invasion?

These examples can only get more ridiculous before you lot either admit you don't trust your armed forces/police as much as you propose, or admit you like arguing this boring argument for arguments sake.

Either answer I'm fine and dandy with.

One of the reasons we all get "up in arms" about gun legislation, is that government has been chipping away, and skirting the second amendment for decades. If we give them an inch, they want to turn it into a mile. My state is the only state in the country that requires a "Firearm Owner ID". Illinois has made gun ownership a privilege instead of a right guaranteed by the constitution. We can't back off, or they will keep pushing and skirting. We have to draw a line somewhere, and in my opinion, we've already allowed too much latitude as it is.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:06 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: ForteanOrg

Ummm, and if someone wants to kill people, they will also kill people. Even if they don't have firearms readily available.

So what's the point again?


Well, it's a lot more difficult to kill say 14 people with hammers, knives or pointy bamboo sticks. You well know that firearms are meant to kill people, automatic firearms make it very easy to kill a lot of people and the sole purpose of firearms is - to kill people. I'm against killing people, so I'm against firearms.


Do you really hate guns that badly? Or are you just afraid of them?


Guns are just instruments. I don't hate instruments. I'm not afraid of them either. I'm simply doing the maths - and in my country, which has fairly strict gun laws, we have a lot less deaths by firearms per capita.




posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:07 AM
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a reply to: ForteanOrg




You pretend that suicides aren't deaths.


Do you honestly believe that not having a gun will stop someone from killing themselves if they really want to? Pills, tall buildings, car crash, cutting your wrists, suffocation/hanging,..........do I really need to go on? People who want to kill themselves will find a way. Don't blame it on gun owners.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:07 AM
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originally posted by: ForteanOrg
...automatic firearms make it very easy to kill a lot of people...


Which mass shooting involved automatic weapons?



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:10 AM
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a reply to: ForteanOrg

Automatic weapons are broadly illegal without a plethora of hoops having been jumped through. You don't just go down to your local gun shop and pick up a full auto.

Don't move the goal posts.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:12 AM
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a reply to: neo96

The liberals are terrorists.....advocating the overthrow of our 2nd Amendment without due process!




posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:12 AM
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a reply to: vor78

Of course you are downplaying the numbers. Facts: 30.000 people die each year by firearms. Not 3000, not 15.000, not 20.000, but over 30.000 and their numbers are climbing. I never said that strict gun laws would end suicides, I'm simply pointing out that you can't have 30.000 deaths by firearms if you take away the firearms. It really is that simple.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:13 AM
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a reply to: Xtrozero

Which is an urban myth -



In 1960, an Ohio coroner named Paul Kopsch, a police Sergeant named Daniel Turcos and Special Investigator Donald Ward started working on a new handgun round that could penetrate materials that stop a lead bullet. By 1981, the bullets were made from brass instead of lead and were punching through some previously “untouchable” material but were ruining barrels. So they ingeniously decided to coat the bullets in Teflon to keep from washing out the rifling. The new company was named KTW after the last names of the three founders.

copkiller-teflonIn 1982, a year after they had become commercially available in brass, NBC broadcast a special demonstrating how these new bullets were capable of penetrating the body armor worn by cops. Instead of focusing on the fact that the bullets were constructed of brass, NBC focused on the Teflon coating, which does nothing to make the bullet go any deeper into the target, only saves the gun barrel from getting stripped. Anyways, Hollywood ran with Teflon, possibly because it sounds sexier, with countless movies making reference to sinister Teflon coated bullets penetrating ballistic vests (like Lethal Weapon 3).

While the KTW bullets could penetrate vests, it had nothing to do with what they were coated with.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:18 AM
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originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: ForteanOrgDo you honestly believe that not having a gun will stop someone from killing themselves if they really want to?


It's the "if they really want to" part that is of importance to me. If somebody wants to kill himself (herself) they will find a way. But often, people that try to kill themselves don't really want to die. It's often a cry for help, a very strong distress signal. If somebody sits in a warm bath with wrists cut, they will be alive for quite a while still and can be found. Even hanging yourself - given that you don't snap your neck as is the intended procedure when the State hangs somebody - gives you a chance to be found in time. But pulling the trigger is a very sure way to end it all.

But again: suicide or not - dead is dead. And 30.000 deaths can be prevented by taking away the firearms. What's so difficult to understand, I wonder..



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:19 AM
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originally posted by: ForteanOrg
...and their numbers are climbing.


Gun homicides in the United States are down from 2006, their highest, to 11,208 in 2013 which is th most recent year of full reporting.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:21 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I can't recall saying that mass shootings involved automatic weapons. I said that automatic weapons make it easier to kill a lot of people in a short time.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:21 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

The total number of deaths by firearms are climbing.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:23 AM
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originally posted by: ForteanOrg
The total number of deaths by firearms are climbing.


Because of climbing suicide rates. What are you doing to help the Japanese, South Koreans and Finns who have tremendously higher rates than the United States and much stricter gun laws?



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:23 AM
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originally posted by: ForteanOrg
I can't recall saying that mass shootings involved automatic weapons. I said that automatic weapons make it easier to kill a lot of people in a short time.


And what is the relevance of automatic weapons to the topic? There has been a ban on selling new ones since 1986.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:24 AM
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a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

The only difference is How They Look. Both fire the same round, yet one is a scary black "assault rifle", the other is a hunting rifle.




posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:24 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: ForteanOrg

Automatic weapons are broadly illegal without a plethora of hoops having been jumped through. You don't just go down to your local gun shop and pick up a full auto.

Don't move the goal posts.



All you need to be the owner of your very own pre-1986 full auto firearm is a whole lot of cash.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:27 AM
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originally posted by: ForteanOrg
All you need to be the owner of your very own pre-1986 full auto firearm is a whole lot of cash.


Wrong.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:27 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
The total number of deaths by firearms are climbing.


Because of climbing suicide rates. What are you doing to help the Japanese, South Koreans and Finns who have tremendously higher rates than the United States and much stricter gun laws?


Staying on the right side of the fence and oppose less strict gun laws. If the Japanese (for example) would have less strict gun laws, their suicide rate would skyrocket. No guns = no death by guns. Simple.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:28 AM
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originally posted by: ForteanOrg
a reply to: vor78

Of course you are downplaying the numbers. Facts: 30.000 people die each year by firearms. Not 3000, not 15.000, not 20.000, but over 30.000 and their numbers are climbing. I never said that strict gun laws would end suicides, I'm simply pointing out that you can't have 30.000 deaths by firearms if you take away the firearms. It really is that simple.


No, it's not that "simple."

If it was that simple, no one would have had to repeal 18th Amendment because everyone would have been completely fine with making alcohol illegal.

Thing is that firearms, like alcohol, are a part of our national culture. They are a part of why this nation exists in the first place, and they are enshrined in the COTUS with their very own amendment.

And considering the things we have tried to prohibit, like hard narcotics, that continue to be a very real problem. When it comes right down to it, wasn't the Netherlands one of the first nations to start throwing in the towel on that war on drugs thingie sort of acknowledging they could never get rid of or stop it through strict prohibition?

But you expect that guns here will work out any differently for us?



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