NYT: Americans With Assault Rifles Should 'Give Them Up For The Good Of Their Fellow Citizens'

originally posted by: Sunwolf

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
a reply to: butcherguy

Well, yes, alcohol is dangerous too. We did that risk analysis long ago, and at a certain time we even thought it necessary to prohibit its use. Even today we DO have controls in place to reduce the risk of consumption of alcohol. In many countries, you need to be 18 or 21 years old to be allowed to buy it (or consume it in public places). If you are drunk in public, you will get arrested. In some States you can't even have it in your car, unless in a brown paper bag and in your trunk, I believe. There are campaigns that warn us not to drink too much. We educate our children not to drink, or to drink moderate.

On the other hand: moderate consumption of alcohol might benefit your health, the ball is still out on that one. But e.g. red wine is said to be good for your circulation / heart, but only if you limit yourself to a glass a day. So, there are differences, but all in all I'd say that restrictions on the use of alcohol are wise and I fully support them.

Finally, yes, it's a fact that by doing some risk analysis and using your brain, you can actually come up with measures and controls to reduce isk. Laws that regulate the use of alcohol become more and more strict in Europe, smoking is impopular nowadays, people live healthier lives and live longer. Even our "famous" Dutch soft drug acceptance policies are actually quite strict - and will become even stricter after we have legalised their use. Mark my words.

But - we weren't discussing alcohol, methinks. We were discussing guns.

Nobody cares what a foreigner thinks about U.S. gun laws,our right to bear arms is not going away.

Whether you care or not what 'foreigners' think is irreverent. Fact is, the US isn't some hermit state like North Korea and mass shootings in the US have mass exposure in MSM all over the developed world.

We're totally within our right to have an opinion about whats being discussed on the MSM, whether its our country or not... So just deal with it, brother!

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Do these guns possess you and make you kill people? If not, then how does owning one put others at risk?

They tend to go off accidentally, they tend to be shot by people with poor judgement, they tend to be shot by people with bad shooting skills, they tend to be shot by people that aren't supposed to use the gun, like three year olds that got hold of poppah's gun. They tend to frighthen people whom may overreact. They are mostly noisy, smelly and messy and are only good to kill. In fact, in some cases, I believe that they do posess people instead of the other way around, given the way their owners (or are they the owned?) overreact if you suggest restrictions on their use.

originally posted by: mwalker
I just dont understand democrats. Time and again life has proven to them they are not the best decision makers.

The thinking man tends to take time to get to the right conclusion, regardless which party line he toes.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

Whether you care or not what 'foreigners' think is irreverent. Fact is, the US isn't some hermit state like North Korea and mass shootings in the US have mass exposure in MSM all over the developed world.

We're totally within our right to have an opinion about whats being discussed on the MSM, whether its our country or not... So just deal with it, brother!

Then do not complain about US interference/influence in your country. As long as someone is consistent I am ok with that.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Well, I have huge issues with how the US have tried to dictate there so called 'drug war' upon our political system.

But I'm all for pine gap, I'm lost to why anyone would be against it... I mean, the less us Aussies have to pay for national defense at the expense of US tax payers, all the better, right?

a reply to: stormbringer1701
Did you not see what comment I was responding to.
Shame. Poor response.

a reply to: Subaeruginosa
I think he has said something similar before. We don't have a right to an opinion if we don't listen to the media exposure in his country.

Well unless he speaks french Russian and Arabic he should keep his opinion to himself on crisis where he can't understand the media in those countries. Such a stupid perspective to have.

originally posted by: CB328

a so called assault rifle is only cosmetically different from many hunting rifles

Yeah right, lets see you shoot 30-50 rounds in a few seconds with a bolt action rifle.

Reading is fundamental.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

But - we weren't discussing alcohol, methinks. We were discussing guns.

Me thinks that you were the 'half a brain' guy that I was quoting.
With all of the mitigation of regulation and restriction on alcohol sales and use, it still kills more than twice as many people as guns. So, anyone with 'half a brain' would see that the stuff is inherently dangerous.
You try to make the assertion that it is medically necessary to have alcohol. That is bull. If alcohol were to disappear tomorrow, the only people that would suffer from the lack of it would be alcoholics. A few of them might die, but 88,000 people per year would live because it was gone.
I am not advocating the prohibition of alcohol. I am on the side of freedom. I would rather let people decide whether they want to do what they want with their own bodies.
I wanted to see if you would support a thing that is not necessary for life that kills far more people than guns, and you did.
The problem is not guns, any more than it is blunt instruments or knives... it is that people hurt and kill others. Believe it or not, it is illegal to punch someone in the face, stab them or shoot them (barring self defense). That people use those methods in social interaction today is the problem.

I would really like to see some per capita gun violence statistics from before and after the gun control acts of 1934 and 1968, just to see what they really accomplished.

This isn't a hardware problem... it is a software issue (in the gray matter of criminals).

I think that you are afraid of guns.

What scares me are those Americans willing to give up their inalienable rights to the state.

Some people really do think their rights are whatever the state tells them they should be.

In all of recorded history there are numerous examples of what has continually happened for people that have gone down the road.

It has never turned out well.

Today it's guns.

Tomorrow it's 'free' speech.

The next day it's the RIGHT to VOTE.

After all it would be for the 'common' good.

a reply to: neo96

I don't completely agree with that, Neo. Its not so much that they're willing to give up a right because the state tells them to (although some of them probably think that way), its that they're willing to give up a right simply because they, as individuals, couldn't care less about it and they have little to no concern that others may value it.

a reply to: neo96

The US Attorney General is already edging quite close to prohibiting free speech with some of her latest statements.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: neo96

The US Attorney General is already edging quite close to prohibiting free speech with some of her latest statements.

Trump better watch out after yesterday.

originally posted by: butcherguy
I wanted to see if you would support a thing that is not necessary for life that kills far more people than guns, and you did.

Re-read my post. I do not advocate the use of alcohol.I did not suggest a "medical use" of alcohol, merely pointed out that PERHAPS ("the ball is still out on that one") moderate use of alcohol can prevent certain types of diseases. But may well introduce others.

Guns however are always killing machines, there is no exception. They are build for that purpose.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
Guns however are always killing machines, there is no exception. They are build for that purpose.

Firearms are built for the purpose of making money for the manufacturer. Otherwise, the purpose is whatever the purchaser decides it is, and in the overwhelming majority of cases, those purposes are lawful. Relatively speaking, very few firearms manufactured in this country will ever be used in violent crime.

I guess my guns must be defective cause they haven't killed anyone.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: butcherguy
I wanted to see if you would support a thing that is not necessary for life that kills far more people than guns, and you did.

Re-read my post. I do not advocate the use of alcohol.I did not suggest a "medical use" of alcohol, merely pointed out that PERHAPS ("the ball is still out on that one") moderate use of alcohol can prevent certain types of diseases. But may well introduce others.

Guns however are always killing machines, there is no exception. They are build for that purpose.

Yes, you just said that moderate use of alcohol may prevent some diseases. Is that worth 88,000 lives per year... just because you want to get tipsy?
I suggest that you save yourself the effort and give up on saving everyone from guns... if saving more people from alcohol means nothing to you.
Nothing in the Bill of Rights about alcohol, but arms have a spot.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

Guns however are always killing machines, there is no exception. They are build for that purpose.

Netherlands is a nice place, I spent a few weeks there with your military last summer, was fun. There are basic fundamental difference between us though. The Dutch by culture are nice and hard working, they do not really get into any kind of extremism. With only 15 million people over 50% of your population is in the labor force working well and this is good with a socialized system. When that number drops and/or you get a situation like Greece of massive government job cronyism the system starts to break down. Your population growth rate is low as is most of the EU this means your families are mostly one kid or in many cases zero, so I think most families there live within their means, and that creates a happy situation.

Now think of America with 50 Netherlands and each one is different. Where I live in the Northwest our murder rate is lower than yours, are crime rate is extremely low too. No gangs, no really problems, both my kids have never seen a single fight in school and I have never heard of one case of bulling in 11 years.

Go to a city like Chicago and you will see 50 people shot in one weekend, you would not live there and neither would I. The distance between me and Chicago is about the same as you and Moscow so do you think you are close to the Russians in ideology etc. Well it is about the same for me compared to those that live in Chicago and 100s of other places in America.

This brings me to my main point, the true killing machine is ghetto like environments that really drives the vast majority of our crime issues. Unemployment is 5% but that doesn't count the 100 million that should be working but do not, or even try to work, so they drop completely off any employment list. That is 100 million the government needs to take care of, or they get their money with other means, not good. The last part is these people have little desire to change and so the situation stays the same. Seattle up north from where I live is 3.9 per 100,000, but there are 20 cities that range from 15 to 50 per 100,000. Remove these from our totals and that is about 5000 of the 8000 gun murders in the US. Hell Chicago alone counts for 400 to 500 gun deaths per year.

This is what drives me a little crazy when someone tries to compare their much smaller country with ours that is really 50 countries if you really look at it, so I agree Netherlands is much better than many places in America but there is a long list of places that will have better numbers than you too. We have bigger problems in these high risk places than just guns since most of these bad cities have already made guns illegal. Its the cultures in these places that sees death and crime as a norm and that is the real problem. Guns are just a left political propaganda to deflect everyone's attention from the real issues that they have failed at since the vast majority of these bad cities are 100% in control by them for many decades.


Edit to add..

What is up with your waiters/waitresses? You have the worst I ever experienced in the world...lol Every night was a new adventure.

originally posted by: butcherguy
Yes, you just said that moderate use of alcohol may prevent some diseases. Is that worth 88,000 lives per year... just because you want to get tipsy?
I suggest that you save yourself the effort and give up on saving everyone from guns... if saving more people from alcohol means nothing to you.
Nothing in the Bill of Rights about alcohol, but arms have a spot.

Lets add another 30,000 to the list by lowering all speed signs to 25 MPH...

originally posted by: neo96
I guess my guns must be defective cause they haven't killed anyone.

No you just suck at aiming....