A Canadian Perspective on U.S. and Guns

originally posted by: Kukri

3 or 4 cities out of an entire country does not a gang problem make.

Crime is not the sole purview of big cities. There was a murder two blocks from my house by a self-proclaimed homegrown terrorist last year and I live in a pretty suburban area.

originally posted by: superman2012

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: superman2012

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: jacygirl
Maybe if Canada and others read and understood at least some of what started the American Revolution, they would understand why Americans hang on to their guns. This country has been through the gun control issue before with the Redcoats. This would be a very different nation today if our forefathers had not stood their ground.
The American Revolution Against Gun Control

A different time, a different place. Using 250 year old thinking isn't getting you any closer to solving a problem now is it? Link

I am Canadian. I see the whole "we need our guns because it's our right" as actually, "I need a gun because I am afraid".

Hunters and police are the only ones who need guns. The rest are either going to commit a crime, or are fearful. IMO.

It's actually enlightenment era thinking that I 300+ years old but I guess your elite canadian education didn't teach the history of revolutions.

It's only lazy thinkers that think restricting guns is the answer. It's a feel good no effort solution.

How do the gangs who contribute to 90 percent of gun violence get guns? Illegally. Why? Because there are more than 300 million in circulation. How would they be removed? Search and seizure? Possibly 100 million firearms unregistered. How do they find those? You think nut jobs will stop when wallmart makes it harder to buy guns?

Obviously there are things we could do with licensing but its unlikely the left and right will show any leadership on the issue. They are like telemarketers reading a script. Gun restrictions are the least effective method for stopping gun violence.

I would trust the thinking of Locke, Rouseau, Jefferson and Adams far more than the lack of thinking today. Nobody thinks deeply today its all about me me me and what toys can I have.

Laziness has nothing to do with my post. Poor education and poor upbringing has lead to the current gun crazy problem that is happening in the US.

Restricting guns and making it hard to buy them will be the answer, but you have to try to think forward more than 10+ years, that is hard for some to do, hence the "it will never work" answer. If you give a well thought out (and proven) solution enough time, it will work. Licensing is another solution, hefty fines and/or jail time for resellers that don't follow protocol. There are soo many ways to make it harder to get a gun, you just can't expect instant results, otherwise I have to respond to posts like these.

Oh laziness certainly does.

Why don't you explain to me how you remove 300 million guns from society in ten years?

Try a little criminology research. Why do people commit crimes? Is it because guns are readily available?

I would love to hear how you would remove 300 million guns.

Also like to know why you think america has such high crime rates?

Have you ever researched the subject from a non biased perspective? Using FBI, and neutral leading crimeneology experts?

You know how we have lowered violent crime?
We put more cops in bad areas, we elevate economics, you create community based programs to allaow people to feel connected to society rather than against it, you put money into education, and you stop stirring up other radicals with emperialist conquests.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Ooo I can name one the Dirty Redcoats!.
Jacy you have to name a Gun hokcey team now.

*sigh*...Okay...The Maple Leafs? But only because they likely feel like shooting themselves at times...lol....(totally just kidding...totally...)

Augustus...*sigh*....I know Detroit isn't in a mess because of guns or mass shootings. What I meant is...it doesn't make us happy to see bad things happen to the U.S. (Now don't you have some matchmaking to do?)

jacy

originally posted by: Kukri

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Kukri
Interesting article and one that for the most part reflects Canadian attitudes towards weapons. Note I said weapons as opposed to guns. the difference being guns are a tool usually for hunting or sport shooting, weapons have one purpose and that's to kill people.

I have no problem with people owning guns but I do have a problem with a person that owns weapons for the sole purpose of "self-defence" Admittedly I also live in Canada and we do not have to worry about being shot by a mugger,thief, gang banger, nutjob whatever and I guess that's the difference. Maybe if I lived in a country where violent gun crime was a problem I would alter my attitude towards this.

Is there a solution to the problems plaguing our brothers and sisters to the south? Possibly but it will take decades and a lot of calm and rational thought to find an equitable solution to such a social enigma.

Disclaimer: There was a time many moons ago when I owned almost a dozen long guns and several handguns. I lost interest in hunting and practical shooting and couldn't justify the cost of either so chose to sell them legally to friends.





ETA: Good to see you around Jacygirl, haven't seen you around in a bit. Happy Holidays

Really? You don't have to worry about gang bangers and the like?? That depends on where you live, methinks. I spend much time on both sides of the border. Currently residing in Blaine, Wa. (A suburb of White Rock, B.C.....

) I assure you I am MUCH safer in an armed Blaine than anyone living in Surrey, B.C....

Not even close.

3 or 4 cities out of an entire country does not a gang problem make. Can you say the same even on a per capita basis? Maybe we should compare violent crime stats or incarceration rates?

Hey, no argument on that score. All I was pointing out was the problem isn't unknown in Canada, as your post implied, and there are massive areas of the U.S., largely rural, that is as safe as anywhere in the world.

a reply to: Kukri

originally posted by: donktheclown
a reply to: jacygirl

SNIP
LOVE, cuz. Oh, btw, rest well tonight as untold millions of gun-toting redneck 'Muricans would absolutely flood your country if someone attacked Canada. We'd "bring the pain," so to speak. Then Canada would appreciate and understand.

Where was the word "invade" used?

We "Muricans" have no interest in invading our northern family.

Though we do so love your bacon.

originally posted by: jacygirl

Augustus...*sigh*....I know Detroit isn't in a mess because of guns or mass shootings. What I meant is...it doesn't make us happy to see bad things happen to the U.S.

Gotcha. We hate seeing bad things happen in Canada too, like winter.

(Now don't you have some matchmaking to do?)

jacy

Get your sexy booty over there and I will match you up with the man of your dreams.

If your dreams are more like night terrors.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus



You'll have to ask my ATS hubby if I can play, lol!

jacy

originally posted by: jacygirl
You'll have to ask my ATS hubby if I can play, lol!

jacy

There are a bevy of chickies I would pair that cheeky monkey up with.

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Kukri

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Kukri
Interesting article and one that for the most part reflects Canadian attitudes towards weapons. Note I said weapons as opposed to guns. the difference being guns are a tool usually for hunting or sport shooting, weapons have one purpose and that's to kill people.

I have no problem with people owning guns but I do have a problem with a person that owns weapons for the sole purpose of "self-defence" Admittedly I also live in Canada and we do not have to worry about being shot by a mugger,thief, gang banger, nutjob whatever and I guess that's the difference. Maybe if I lived in a country where violent gun crime was a problem I would alter my attitude towards this.

Is there a solution to the problems plaguing our brothers and sisters to the south? Possibly but it will take decades and a lot of calm and rational thought to find an equitable solution to such a social enigma.

Disclaimer: There was a time many moons ago when I owned almost a dozen long guns and several handguns. I lost interest in hunting and practical shooting and couldn't justify the cost of either so chose to sell them legally to friends.





ETA: Good to see you around Jacygirl, haven't seen you around in a bit. Happy Holidays

Really? You don't have to worry about gang bangers and the like?? That depends on where you live, methinks. I spend much time on both sides of the border. Currently residing in Blaine, Wa. (A suburb of White Rock, B.C.....

) I assure you I am MUCH safer in an armed Blaine than anyone living in Surrey, B.C....

Not even close.

3 or 4 cities out of an entire country does not a gang problem make. Can you say the same even on a per capita basis? Maybe we should compare violent crime stats or incarceration rates?

Hey, no argument on that score. All I was pointing out was the problem isn't unknown in Canada, as your post implied, and there are massive areas of the U.S., largely rural, that is as safe as anywhere in the world.

Sadly no it isn't we have the same problems as you and everybody else and you have far more places and people that are beautiful, and great places to live and visit than you do that are lets say less desirable. The knee jerk reaction we get on both sides of this argument is somewhat tiring though and I as a Canadian (ex-pat Brit actually) truly wish that there was a simple solution to solving these problems. But bickering over things., as opposed to sitting down and working out viable solutions to violent crime, is not going to help.

Cheers mate and you do live in a wonderful part of the continent and are lucky as I am to be able to share such a close border and get to interact with each other.

originally posted by: NewzNose
a reply to: Kukri

originally posted by: donktheclown
a reply to: jacygirl

SNIP
LOVE, cuz. Oh, btw, rest well tonight as untold millions of gun-toting redneck 'Muricans would absolutely flood your country if someone attacked Canada. We'd "bring the pain," so to speak. Then Canada would appreciate and understand.

Where was the word "invade" used?

We "Muricans" have no interest in invading our northern family.

Though we do so love your bacon.

It wasn't! But when one uses the term "flood your country with armed rednecks" it does seem to have an invade connotation to it.

Yes we do have great bacon and maple syrup. And you folks sure know how to party and have fun when you come up to the cottage (with your ridiculously cheap booze) or weekend shop in our town. Wouldn't change it for the world.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: superman2012

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: superman2012

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: jacygirl
Maybe if Canada and others read and understood at least some of what started the American Revolution, they would understand why Americans hang on to their guns. This country has been through the gun control issue before with the Redcoats. This would be a very different nation today if our forefathers had not stood their ground.
The American Revolution Against Gun Control

A different time, a different place. Using 250 year old thinking isn't getting you any closer to solving a problem now is it? Link

I am Canadian. I see the whole "we need our guns because it's our right" as actually, "I need a gun because I am afraid".

Hunters and police are the only ones who need guns. The rest are either going to commit a crime, or are fearful. IMO.

It's actually enlightenment era thinking that I 300+ years old but I guess your elite canadian education didn't teach the history of revolutions.

It's only lazy thinkers that think restricting guns is the answer. It's a feel good no effort solution.

How do the gangs who contribute to 90 percent of gun violence get guns? Illegally. Why? Because there are more than 300 million in circulation. How would they be removed? Search and seizure? Possibly 100 million firearms unregistered. How do they find those? You think nut jobs will stop when wallmart makes it harder to buy guns?

Obviously there are things we could do with licensing but its unlikely the left and right will show any leadership on the issue. They are like telemarketers reading a script. Gun restrictions are the least effective method for stopping gun violence.

I would trust the thinking of Locke, Rouseau, Jefferson and Adams far more than the lack of thinking today. Nobody thinks deeply today its all about me me me and what toys can I have.

Laziness has nothing to do with my post. Poor education and poor upbringing has lead to the current gun crazy problem that is happening in the US.

Restricting guns and making it hard to buy them will be the answer, but you have to try to think forward more than 10+ years, that is hard for some to do, hence the "it will never work" answer. If you give a well thought out (and proven) solution enough time, it will work. Licensing is another solution, hefty fines and/or jail time for resellers that don't follow protocol. There are soo many ways to make it harder to get a gun, you just can't expect instant results, otherwise I have to respond to posts like these.

Oh laziness certainly does.

Why don't you explain to me how you remove 300 million guns from society in ten years?

Try a little criminology research. Why do people commit crimes? Is it because guns are readily available?

I would love to hear how you would remove 300 million guns.

Also like to know why you think america has such high crime rates?

Have you ever researched the subject from a non biased perspective? Using FBI, and neutral leading crimeneology experts?

You know how we have lowered violent crime?
We put more cops in bad areas, we elevate economics, you create community based programs to allaow people to feel connected to society rather than against it, you put money into education, and you stop stirring up other radicals with emperialist conquests.

Easy. As I said, patience and not expecting an immediate change. How many people are committing crimes with antique derringers? A little bit of a stretch yah, but when the police has newer and better guns than the criminals, as long as they have a modicum of rational thought, they aren't going to try to resist. Same as the American populace "rising up" to overthrow tyranny. Not going to happen.

I already addressed why people commit crimes...try a little reading.

I also addressed, in a link, that America has a very high crime rate.

I'm not biased at all, unless you count facts as a bias?!? I couldn't care less if every gun toting Yosemite Sam shoots eachother or not because they need their guns. Does not make one lick of difference in my everyday life. Unbiased enough for ya?

Edit: Very poor education and very poor upbringing causes this mess. As stated before. Mentioned for the second time as you seem to have missed it?...

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: jacygirl

Augustus...*sigh*....I know Detroit isn't in a mess because of guns or mass shootings. What I meant is...it doesn't make us happy to see bad things happen to the U.S.

Gotcha. We hate seeing bad things happen in Canada too, like winter.

(Now don't you have some matchmaking to do?)

jacy

Get your sexy booty over there and I will match you up with the man of your dreams.

If your dreams are more like night terrors.

Wazzis Jacy's single what?

a reply to: jacygirl

I'm a Canadian and I conceal carried 2 guns for 4 years. I understand the US perspective and I fully agree with it. We should have the same gun rights in Canada as they do in the US. Whether someone gets killed during the commission of a crime, by a gun or a knife or by hand is irrelevant. What is relevant is someone else being able to stop the crime and maybe save lives.

And don't rely on the police, they serve and protect only the law, the system, not the people. Police are just janitors with an attitude and a gun, just another gang.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: Kukri

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Kukri

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Kukri
Interesting article and one that for the most part reflects Canadian attitudes towards weapons. Note I said weapons as opposed to guns. the difference being guns are a tool usually for hunting or sport shooting, weapons have one purpose and that's to kill people.

I have no problem with people owning guns but I do have a problem with a person that owns weapons for the sole purpose of "self-defence" Admittedly I also live in Canada and we do not have to worry about being shot by a mugger,thief, gang banger, nutjob whatever and I guess that's the difference. Maybe if I lived in a country where violent gun crime was a problem I would alter my attitude towards this.

Is there a solution to the problems plaguing our brothers and sisters to the south? Possibly but it will take decades and a lot of calm and rational thought to find an equitable solution to such a social enigma.

Disclaimer: There was a time many moons ago when I owned almost a dozen long guns and several handguns. I lost interest in hunting and practical shooting and couldn't justify the cost of either so chose to sell them legally to friends.





ETA: Good to see you around Jacygirl, haven't seen you around in a bit. Happy Holidays

Really? You don't have to worry about gang bangers and the like?? That depends on where you live, methinks. I spend much time on both sides of the border. Currently residing in Blaine, Wa. (A suburb of White Rock, B.C.....

) I assure you I am MUCH safer in an armed Blaine than anyone living in Surrey, B.C....

Not even close.

3 or 4 cities out of an entire country does not a gang problem make. Can you say the same even on a per capita basis? Maybe we should compare violent crime stats or incarceration rates?

Hey, no argument on that score. All I was pointing out was the problem isn't unknown in Canada, as your post implied, and there are massive areas of the U.S., largely rural, that is as safe as anywhere in the world.

Sadly no it isn't we have the same problems as you and everybody else and you have far more places and people that are beautiful, and great places to live and visit than you do that are lets say less desirable. The knee jerk reaction we get on both sides of this argument is somewhat tiring though and I as a Canadian (ex-pat Brit actually) truly wish that there was a simple solution to solving these problems. But bickering over things., as opposed to sitting down and working out viable solutions to violent crime, is not going to help.

Cheers mate and you do live in a wonderful part of the continent and are lucky as I am to be able to share such a close border and get to interact with each other.

I agree completely.

I am a gun owner. My firearms would still be fine under any restrictions.

I support the second. My wife is from Poland and we in the west don't understand how fast society can crumble under duress. It's not a bad thing to be able to defend your family if the government either collapses or is too busy fighting an enemy to help.

This is how several unskilled countries were able to defeat much bigger stronger invaders. Even in modern times like vietnam.

However there are some restrictions and teaching that can be done to lower accidents and keep guns from unstable people. I have ccl and the test is a joke. There should be much more maintenance of marksmanship skills as refresher courses and making sure the safety aspect of having a concealable weapon is a good as can be in balance with the right to bare arms.

Long guns aren't nearly the same threat statistically to society semi auto or not. They are much more powerful and still pose a public safety threat but, we haven't really been trying the other aspects of lowering crime as much as we should .

We don't like spending money on the poor and they have the worst crime problems that actually effect them everyday not just news stories all the safe people get stirred up over. It's not just a news story to the poor. It's real and very few people care.

You want to stop violence like I said earlier invest in elevating the poor, make people feel connected to their society rather than its against them, spend on education, job training and stop stirring up the ME.

We may need to restrict immigration from troubled countries and have closer observations of the immigrants from the countries with radicals. Thats just a concession as an immigrant you need to have. If you want to truly have a better life for yourself and get out of the hell you were in it shouldn't be a problem.

After we stop getting in their business over seas may be able to resume normal relations in a generation or two. We also need to stop funding countries who are massive human rights violators so their populations have a chance to change their own society.

originally posted by: superman2012

Hunters and police are the only ones who need guns. The rest are either going to commit a crime, or are fearful. IMO.

Why don't hunters and police also fall into the "I'm afraid" category? Lot's of police in the US say they shoot someone because they are "in fear for their lives." Hunters are just afraid to take on a buck bare handed.

Do soldiers fall in the crime or fear category?

originally posted by: superman2012

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: superman2012

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: superman2012

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: jacygirl
Maybe if Canada and others read and understood at least some of what started the American Revolution, they would understand why Americans hang on to their guns. This country has been through the gun control issue before with the Redcoats. This would be a very different nation today if our forefathers had not stood their ground.
The American Revolution Against Gun Control

A different time, a different place. Using 250 year old thinking isn't getting you any closer to solving a problem now is it? Link

I am Canadian. I see the whole "we need our guns because it's our right" as actually, "I need a gun because I am afraid".

Hunters and police are the only ones who need guns. The rest are either going to commit a crime, or are fearful. IMO.

It's actually enlightenment era thinking that I 300+ years old but I guess your elite canadian education didn't teach the history of revolutions.

It's only lazy thinkers that think restricting guns is the answer. It's a feel good no effort solution.

How do the gangs who contribute to 90 percent of gun violence get guns? Illegally. Why? Because there are more than 300 million in circulation. How would they be removed? Search and seizure? Possibly 100 million firearms unregistered. How do they find those? You think nut jobs will stop when wallmart makes it harder to buy guns?

Obviously there are things we could do with licensing but its unlikely the left and right will show any leadership on the issue. They are like telemarketers reading a script. Gun restrictions are the least effective method for stopping gun violence.

I would trust the thinking of Locke, Rouseau, Jefferson and Adams far more than the lack of thinking today. Nobody thinks deeply today its all about me me me and what toys can I have.

Laziness has nothing to do with my post. Poor education and poor upbringing has lead to the current gun crazy problem that is happening in the US.

Restricting guns and making it hard to buy them will be the answer, but you have to try to think forward more than 10+ years, that is hard for some to do, hence the "it will never work" answer. If you give a well thought out (and proven) solution enough time, it will work. Licensing is another solution, hefty fines and/or jail time for resellers that don't follow protocol. There are soo many ways to make it harder to get a gun, you just can't expect instant results, otherwise I have to respond to posts like these.

Oh laziness certainly does.

Why don't you explain to me how you remove 300 million guns from society in ten years?

Try a little criminology research. Why do people commit crimes? Is it because guns are readily available?

I would love to hear how you would remove 300 million guns.

Also like to know why you think america has such high crime rates?

Have you ever researched the subject from a non biased perspective? Using FBI, and neutral leading crimeneology experts?

You know how we have lowered violent crime?
We put more cops in bad areas, we elevate economics, you create community based programs to allaow people to feel connected to society rather than against it, you put money into education, and you stop stirring up other radicals with emperialist conquests.

Easy. As I said, patience and not expecting an immediate change. How many people are committing crimes with antique derringers? A little bit of a stretch yah, but when the police has newer and better guns than the criminals, as long as they have a modicum of rational thought, they aren't going to try to resist. Same as the American populace "rising up" to overthrow tyranny. Not going to happen.

I already addressed why people commit crimes...try a little reading.

I also addressed, in a link, that America has a very high crime rate.

I'm not biased at all, unless you count facts as a bias?!? I couldn't care less if every gun toting Yosemite Sam shoots eachother or not because they need their guns. Does not make one lick of difference in my everyday life. Unbiased enough for ya?

Edit: Very poor education and very poor upbringing causes this mess. As stated before. Mentioned for the second time as you seem to have missed it?...

I didn't miss anything I just don't think you are as educated as you think about crimeneology.

People commit crimes most often when they feel society is against them and they have nothing to loose. Thats a fact.

Education in terms of scholastics has very little to do with it.

And no you aren't unbiased. You hold a belief of the liberal side.

Again patience is a bs answer. It doesn't say anything. It's as empty as a politicians word.

How would you actually remove the 300 million firearms.

Thats over 100 times what Australia did with confiscation. Which would create riots in the US.

Try thinking through the problem

Same with the we could never win against a modern tyranical gov. Put that in perspective with revolutions in history. You think the redcots didn't have far superior weapons? What about vietnam when america lost?

How many soldiers and cops would be willing to attack the general population during a sustained uprising with guerilla warfare? How many vets and defectors would bring their tactical knowledge to the militias? Who would protect you in a gov collapse or hostile takeover.

I know it can't happen here...that's what everyone always thinks.

Thanks for putting this up, Jacy. It's not going to go over well, Americans are pretty arrogant and have a bad habit of stuffing their fingers in their ears over EVERYTHING. A foreigner could tell someone here "Don't drink that liquid, it's gasoline!" & the stupid dork would drink it while telling him he's wrong and to shut up. My fellow citizens aren't that bright when it comes to conversation, heads' up & advice.

originally posted by: donktheclown

LOVE, cuz. Oh, btw, rest well tonight as untold millions of gun-toting redneck 'Muricans would absolutely flood your country if someone attacked Canada. We'd "bring the pain," so to speak. Then Canada would appreciate and understand.

Dude. I'm pretty sure the Canadians can handle themselves. And would likely just rid of the rednecks by tossing Timbits behind them stateside. What American glutton won't eat donut holes?

originally posted by: Nyiah
Thanks for putting this up, Jacy. It's not going to go over well, Americans are pretty arrogant and have a bad habit of stuffing their fingers in their ears over EVERYTHING. A foreigner could tell someone here "Don't drink that liquid, it's gasoline!" & the stupid dork would drink it while telling him he's wrong and to shut up. My fellow citizens aren't that bright when it comes to conversation, heads' up & advice.

originally posted by: donktheclown

LOVE, cuz. Oh, btw, rest well tonight as untold millions of gun-toting redneck 'Muricans would absolutely flood your country if someone attacked Canada. We'd "bring the pain," so to speak. Then Canada would appreciate and understand.

Dude. I'm pretty sure the Canadians can handle themselves. And would likely just rid of the rednecks by tossing Timbits behind them stateside. What American glutton won't eat donut holes?

It's also apples and oranges. To amend the constitution is very difficult. It's only been done for voting rights purposes for the most part.

So we need other solutions. And there are plenty of other ways.

Some stats I found from a UK perspective.

UK murders with firearms per million = 0.236

US murders with firearms per million = 32.57

UK violent crime murder rate per million people = 11.68

US violent crime murder rate per million people = 42.01

I am not sure if this is statistically significant. I did notice if you remove guns from violent crime the UK beats the US.

Link

They also have a US/Canada comparison here

Link

a reply to: luthier

Well, here's an idea. The pro-gun side keeps arguing that the crimes committed are done via stolen, legal weapons. This is the fatal flaw in their argument-- you effed up securing your weapon, and it was stolen. Having it stolen off your person is a pass, hard to secure it t your body while being mugged & the like.

I propose mandatory lock & key storage, and a revamp of storage containers to make them as close to burgle-proof as possible. I know people will argue those gun safes are already good enough, but aim a little higher & strive for better. Many stolen weapons have been busted out of those safes without all that much effort. Tougher material & lock systems are needed. Would this be more expensive? Oh yes. But if you want a gun, you're going to make sure you're not part of the "piss-poorly stored" problem in the first place, right? Anyone found to have had their gun stolen while not mugged, i.e not locked up tight, gets their weapon revoked, X amount of time & remedial classes pass before being allowed to do purchase another/reclaim if found on a criminal.

THAT would hinder thefts. Making the owners significantly more responsible for the storage of their guns.