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Finland plans to give every citizen a basic income of 800 euros a month

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posted on Dec, 5 2015 @ 08:59 PM
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a reply to: theantediluvian

You've done a great deal of research my friend and it certainly deserves more than a star. Unfortunately that's all I can give. I wish the people writing our laws educated themselves as much as you have.




posted on Dec, 5 2015 @ 09:12 PM
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So they are going to give millionaires 800 euros a month even theough they are making megabucks on their investments all over the world. If they had their money invested in Finland businesses, I can see the reasoning, but it sounds like the government isn't taking into consideration that many people will be getting undeclared income from other sources. I'm a yooper finn. I always liked to work.



posted on Dec, 5 2015 @ 09:33 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6
I exist, pay me. God, how mankind survived this long with this genetic predisposition for laziness and theft is anyone's guess.


Somebody owes me something! Back in my 20s when I was working my ass off I had crap..oh ya they owe me big time!



posted on Dec, 5 2015 @ 10:03 PM
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This approach would build a lot more flexibility into how people live and work.

800 euros per month
800 euros per month + part-time job
800 euros per month + part-time job / part time education
800 euros per month + full-time job

You can choose to sit on the couch and play video games, mix part-time work with spending time with family. Engage in voluntary work, work full-time or enroll in 3rd level classes.



According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average worker currently holds ten different jobs before age forty, and this number is projected to grow. Forrester Research predicts that today's youngest workers ? that's you ? will hold twelve to fifteen jobs in their lifetime




As employment becomes more flexible and insecure, this approach may provide a stable foundation from which people can choose how to spend their time. There will always be people who want more material possessions and prestige willing work and accumulate greater wealth and on the other end of the spectrum - social loafers. This
at the very least represents an interesting social experiment - one which will be watched with interest throughout the EU.






edit on 144937479712bSat, 05 Dec 2015 22:06:37 -0600pmth0000001200000037 by UmbraSumus because: (no reason given)

edit on 144937498812bSat, 05 Dec 2015 22:09:48 -0600pmth0000001200000048 by UmbraSumus because: link issues



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 10:10 AM
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a reply to: interupt42

I wanted to add a link that explains a bit more about how the Finnish system will work.

www.commondreams.org...


Basic income is a regular and unconditional distribution of money by the state to every member of society, whether they engage in paid work or not. Basic income is always tax-free and it replaces social welfare payments, child benefit and the state pension as we currently know them. It also extends to all those who currently receive no income from the state. Ideally, a basic income would be sufficient for each person to have a frugal but decent lifestyle without supplementary income from paid work.

Basic income would bring into the security net all those not served by the current system: casual and short-contract workers who get no or limited sick pay, holiday pay or pension rights; self-employed people and business owners; those doing valuable unpaid work, including care, which adds value to society and economy. Basic income would increase everybody’s capacity to cope with financial shocks and uncertainties and would improve general quality of life, while supporting many different kinds of work, with or without pay.

Currently, those receiving welfare are badly served by the system: if they take paid work, especially low-paid or temporary, they often lose out financially, in a ‘benefits trap’. With basic income, there would always be a financial incentive for people to earn a taxable income, should a job be available. Employers would also welcome the ending of the benefits trap.


BTW - TO MODS - I couldn't find this thread through the search engine when I used the word Finland as a search term. Pretty poor performance.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 11:21 AM
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a reply to: FyreByrd

Great thanks for the update


If I recall correctly you mentioned that you are from Finland?

Out of curiosity is the grass greener on your side? Here in the US most people have a very cynical view of politicians and gov't is that view shared in Finland?



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 11:26 AM
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Some people will use this to their advantage and some people will take advantage of it..

That is the problem with moves like this, you aren't removing the root cause of corruption, mankind, because that root cause can't be removed.

Hopefully more people use it for good then bad.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 12:17 PM
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a reply to: lavatrance

And who would work then? A good part of people would be home and playing video games all day long.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 02:38 PM
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originally posted by: interupt42
This will be interesting to observe. It sounds like there intention is to tackle unemployment by giving the basic assistance of 800 euros to people in order to encourage those unemployed to take low paying jobs, but yet be able to live of those wages.




The Finnish government is currently drawing up plans to introduce a national basic income. A final proposal won’t be presented until November 2016, but if all goes to schedule, Finland will scrap all existing benefits and instead hand out 800 euros per month—to everyone.

qz.com...



Its not all kumbaya


Another serious consideration is that some people may be worse off under the plan. As the proposal hasn’t been published yet, it’s not yet known exactly who will lose out. But those who currently receive housing support or disability benefits could conceivably end up with less under national basic income, since the plan calls for scrapping existing benefits.



Finland constitution requires that everyone gets treated equal, therefore millionaire and up will also get the same benefit.



Finally, the proposal raises the question of whether it’s really fair to give a millionaire the same amount of welfare as someone who’s truly struggling. Finland’s constitution insists that all citizens must be equal


I'm sceptical but will surely hope for there success ,but some how I just see the cost of everything going up to eventually nullify the 800 income fairly quick.

Here is o hoping to prove my scepticism wrong .


I would assume the 800 euro monthly allowance would reflect inflation and deflation as to be static to the standard of living. If it's not, then it's useless.

This means as the money is devalued, the rate in which they'd pay out would increase and in the event that the money increases in value, the rate at which they'd pay out would decrease accordingly.

That's how a smart person would implement it, but hey -- what do I know?

That should be enough to pay for housing though -- considering In the states a 2 bedroom 2 bath in a semi major city runs you around 895 USD, and since the euro is worth 1.08 of the dollar, it should basically cover 900$ USD in rent, which for anyone employed even part time should give them MORE than enough for food and utilities. Now if you added 2 incomes to that house, their monthly allowance would pay for everything, and any money from work would be used to save or for entertainment/emergencies.

They do say EVERY CITIZEN, not every household. With this consideration, nobody would be "worse" off unless they were living alone.
edit on 7-12-2015 by SRPrime because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 02:47 PM
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originally posted by: starwarsisreal
a reply to: interupt42

They did this in the US with the poor people and they became so dependent on it that they virtually became slaves.


Exactly this. Here in NY we have 3rd and 4th generation welfare recipients. None of them ever try to get a college degree or a job. They are able to extend their benefits by having children, so that's all they do. Dozens of kids with nothing but the worn out clothes on their backs. Then they all grow up and do the same thing their parents did.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 02:52 PM
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a reply to: opethPA




That is the problem with moves like this, you aren't removing the root cause of corruption, mankind, because that root cause can't be removed.


Couldn't agree more. Humans have greed,corruptible and selfish traits and we shouldn't build policies assuming that we don't .

Perhaps we should embrace those traits and build a system that is beneficial to everyone based on ones selfish needs. In other words for you to get rewarded there should be benefits to others.

/FantasyLandRant

Although I do feel that the worlds problems are partly because of our reward system and conflict of interests.



posted on Dec, 7 2015 @ 08:36 PM
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a reply to: interupt42

Thanks for the post - not sure you got the intentions correct with encouraging people to take lower paying jobs though. Sure they could better afford to now but also they could afford to educate themselves further and apply for higher paying qualified jobs.

Some thing obviously needs to happen the unemployment problem is not going to go away, there are no new replacement tech jobs coming with the new mechanized production methods. The game has changed. Have you found any info on how they are proposing to pay for this?

I have just finished putting in a proposal for a similar entitlement here, and government economists project the scheme as fiscally neutral and benefitting 95% of the population. Yes everyone would receive the same amount here also.
I found it interesting to see the costs of the existing welfare system. Superannuation is by far the biggest budget cost, but only a tenth of the cost to administer as what unemployment is.

Really keen to see how this plays out the test cases around the world have shown some really good results. Please post more details of the scheme if you find them.




posted on Dec, 13 2015 @ 03:38 PM
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originally posted by: interupt42





I'm sceptical but will surely hope for there success ,but some how I just see the cost of everything going up to eventually nullify the 800 income fairly quick.


We have to start somewhere if we are ever going to peg back the 1% and share the wealth, it means that the poor will have money to spend and yes inflation will happen locally, contractors prices and the like. Not everything though as Europe prices as a whole will not be affected.

The down side of this my understanding is the taxes will go up to pay for the scheme, so I hope you understand that the rich will ware a fair bit of the cost of financing this. This would be the standard way of dealing with a basic income, I'm just hoping the taxes are not higher for the lowest wage group.

My suggestion is for there to be no taxes on the first $100,000 of wages with a similar basic income for all, paid from a sales tax (a large one). This would slow down the inflation as the cost of things would already be much higher from the tax.

This would mean people would keep every dollar of their earnings, oh and the basic income is all on a plastic card - no cigarette's or alcohol. 95% of the people would be better off, businesses would be more profitable (because of the money in the system) and likewise more jobs. The 5% would be only worse off if they spent their money on luxuries.

I like my ideas better but wish the people of Finland all the best and hope they are a shining example of what a people can do given that all their basic needs are being met.



posted on Dec, 13 2015 @ 04:50 PM
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originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: Ksihkehe

I'm all for education and training (I'm constantly trying to educate myself and add to my own professional skill set) but the best you could hope to do is change who is poor and not the number of poor — a number that is only going to increase under the current economic system and employment paradigm because of technological advancements that are increasingly eliminating the need for human labor.
(......)

Explain to me how education and job training (and improved intelligence) cannot reverse this trend? If machines and computers are increasingly replacing jobs at the lower rungs, thus putting the poorest out of work, wouldn't society be better throwing money at educating and training them as opposed to just giving them subsistence money?

Not educating and training ourselves for the future is a great way to completely hand over the reigns of power to AI. Maybe AI will rule the world then. The people chose not to improve themselves. Eventually AI will beat the best of us if none of us choose to improve ourselves.

I believe you're wrong. We're not going to reach a point where nobody works. As long as people are improving themselves, they'll always have work. If they're not working, they're merely existing waiting to die. And if nobody is working there's no reason for us to exist at all. The AI will simply take over and we will be like dust in the wind.

The best people in the future will travel to other planets and live thousands of years. The least of us will not. Someday the best of us might be immortal and travel to other universes. All during this process, the same forces at work today will be in play. Chief among the fittest, the ability to adapt and improve ourselves and be proactive.
edit on 12/13/2015 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 02:20 AM
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a reply to: Xtrozero

The reason for this is that most people look at the gap between the wealthy and poor, look at the terrible state of the world, and lose hope. They know that the greatest benefits of their work will go to some rich asshole sitting atop an ivory tower who'll never even know their name.
Who wants to strive for a better tomorrow, when the better tomorrow won't be for the ones who created it?

edit on 14/12/2015 by Eilasvaleleyn because: Reasons



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 02:21 AM
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a reply to: interupt42
Good everyone doesn't NEED a job anymore



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 11:28 AM
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originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
a reply to: Xtrozero

The reason for this is that most people look at the gap between the wealthy and poor, look at the terrible state of the world, and lose hope. They know that the greatest benefits of their work will go to some rich asshole sitting atop an ivory tower who'll never even know their name.
Who wants to strive for a better tomorrow, when the better tomorrow won't be for the ones who created it?


In America you do know about 80% of workers work for a small business right, not to many super rich in that category. I get tired of the boo hoo "rich take all the money and so are screwing up my life" statement. So some guy owns 3 McDs and makes good money in the process what should he pay you day one on the job flipping burgers. Most business owners I know work like 16 hours a day and hold all the responsibility and cost of their business. If they do good then they make a very good living, if the business fails then they loose everything too.


So there are some rich assholes but you need to look at that list again. The assholes are dying from old age and old money, so do you think the Gates, Buffetts, Zuckerburgs etc are holding you down with no chance for a future? Lets look at this from a lower angle too, Boeing's CEO makes about 12 million and about another 10 million in stock, now that is a lot of money and it must be holding the employees down from ever getting a head in life right? The average pay at Boeing is 70k plus so we are not talking chump pay, and most make a lot more than that because their union demands they get xx number of over time hours per week too. So back to the CEO, he says you know what I'm taking no money and giving all to the employees in pay, everyone is so happy until they see their pay go up a hole 8 cents per hour spreading 22 million across 130,000 employees...lol so is this really a make or break for you?

Take Walmart, ya I hate them too. I do not shop there nor would I ever work there, but they have 2 million employees and so if we were going to increase their wage lets say by 2 dollars per hour that would be a good amount of money, so lets look at it. after all said and done they make a profit of 4 billion per year that mostly goes into stock options for not just 4 rich bastard kids, but 100,000s of other people holding their stock too.

So here we go..

2,000,000 X 2 = 4,000,000 extra per hour

4,000,000 X 40 = 160,000,000 extra per week

160,000,000 X 4 = 640,000,000 extra per month

640,000,000 X 12 = 7.68 billion extra per year

So how do they do this when total profits is 4 billion? This is the problem with the old "the rich are holding us down" attitude. The rich could give it ALL and you might see a 1 dollar per hour increase at best, or 8 cents like Boeing...lol I would say do not care what the super rich do or don't do, just take care of your self and make a good living on your talents, skills, and education. If you have none of this and 8 cents to a dollar per hour increase is the difference between you having failure or success then do not blame the rich because of it, sorry.



edit on 14-12-2015 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 11:34 AM
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originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: interupt42
Good everyone doesn't NEED a job anymore


or want.

a lot of people are afraid of getting their hands dirty.



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 11:41 AM
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originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: interupt42
Good everyone doesn't NEED a job anymore


What do you do when there isn't enough jobs for everyone? What do you do when people just do not want to work, or have very low skills and abilities? I do not know the answer, but that is where not just us but the world is heading. It's called 330 million people in America all wanting a job at some point. I can easily see 200 million in America in the future without a job to be had no matter how good they are, life is going to change unless we get our population growth under control.


edit on 14-12-2015 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2015 @ 11:46 AM
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originally posted by: Lysergic

a lot of people are afraid of getting their hands dirty.



Lol heaven foe bid an American actually pick fruit etc...



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