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Turkey has selected British Aerospace to help design the TF-X fighter

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posted on Dec, 3 2015 @ 11:52 AM
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Turkey has selected British Aerospace to help design the TF-X fighter. The contract with BAe will last a total of four years and be restricted to the design, not manufacture, of the supposedly 5th gen fighter. Turkey has indicated Airbus is their second choice for this step in the development process.

In defining the concepts for the TF-X, Turkey engaged Saab. Jointly single and dual engine concepts were defined before now moving onto the design phase. Turkey originally, iirc, had been working with South Korea and Indonesia on the KF-X, but withdrew.

What I find interesting is Turkey seems to be avoiding using American companies and equipment. This would be to avoid restrictions the US places on the sale and export of technology. If Turkey can sell the TF-X to whomever they please, this could do a shake up for the international market. The TF-X would probably not be able to compete with the F-35 and others, but for, say, India or Pakistan who cannot buy the F-35, that'd be a sweet spot to be able to export to.

Fighter development is actually getting interesting again. The F-35, American 6th gen, PAK-FA, TF-X, J-20, J-31, KF-X and ATD-X make it all rather interesting. The 90s kinda sucked for that. Its notable there's no European development here other than participation the F-35. That's really loud in its silence.




posted on Dec, 3 2015 @ 12:46 PM
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a reply to: anzha

Good news , I like it .

New generation technology no doubt will be utilised .



posted on Dec, 3 2015 @ 01:22 PM
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Strange timing on this announcement. I'm sure it's purely coincidental though.

Who would of thought Turkey had 10's of Billions to spend on 5th Gen fighter development. I guess black market oil is even more profitable than we thought.

Didn't know the Turks need stealth technology to bomb a bunch of Kurdish malcontents.

Make of it what you will I doubt it'll see fruition anyway



posted on Dec, 3 2015 @ 01:52 PM
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a reply to: Kukri

I think you meant Russian malcontents with what is claimed to be a 5th generation of a fighter of their own.

HTH.



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 01:49 AM
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Seems odd, I dont recall BAE Systems (not been British Aerospace for over 15 years sir!) being into outsourcing aircraft design.

How does that work when your design is your IP - you design them an aircraft and they have to license every build and sale?

How do you prevent your employees from designing a world beating aircraft that could threaten your own?

What if, whilst working for Turkey, the designers came up with something revolutionary and Turkey gets to own the IP??

Do Turkey make engines?

I know thats what contracts are for but it looks like a minefield, anyone got a link to the RFI?

Some other reading:

www.janes.com...



Turkey's Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) issued a request for information (RfI) on 13 March to formally start preliminary design work on its ambitious Turkish Fighter Aircraft (TF-X) programme.

The RfI calls for "the indigenous design, development, and production activities of the first Turkish Fighter Aircraft to meet Turkish Armed Forces' next generation fighter requirements".

The TF-X aircraft is intended to replace Turkey's existing Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft in the 2030s. The RfI call is open to "companies/organisations which are capable to design, develop, and/or manufacture 5th Generation Fighter Aircraft". The preliminary design work of TF-X fighter is estimated to cost about USD500 million, with a first prototype planned for 2023.

There are understood to be about nine companies interested in the programme, including Lockheed Martin, Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, Dassault, BAE Systems, and Saab. Those interested are required to respond to the RfI by 20 March.

The SSM is expected to issue a request for proposal (RFP) for the TF-X in the third quarter of 2015, with local defence industry sources telling IHS Jane's that this may culminate with the selection of a winner before the end of this year.

Whether the fighter aircraft will have single or twin engines will be decided over time and in parallel to preliminary design work. Among three concepts developed include the development of a single-engine, single-seat, 9 g capable fifth-generation jet fighter. Twin-engine prototypes are said to be about 60% more expensive and more time-consuming to produce.



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 01:57 AM
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originally posted by: Kukri

Who would of thought Turkey had 10's of Billions to spend on 5th Gen fighter development.


You are kidding, right? Or did you really think Turkey is a "third world" country?

And no, they do not need oil black market.



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 02:11 AM
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a reply to: Forensick

BAE Systems does a lot of work on avionics and systems, not the actual aircraft design.



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 07:36 AM
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It's BAE Systems. BAES or BAE are also acceptable. Not BAe and certainly not British Aerospace.

BAE do heaps of aircraft design. Perhaps not as much as Airbus Group, Boeing, Lockheed. They did a substantial portion of Eurofighter, they also have done several drones, and build portions of the F-35. Before that aspects of Tornado. Sort of like Northrop I guess?

My understanding is the defense industry has been more fragmented in Europe, so military aircraft have tended to be more based on team efforts - like Eurofighter or Tornado.
edit on 4/12/15 by C0bzz because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 07:45 AM
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a reply to: Zaphod58




BAE Systems does a lot of work on avionics and systems, not the actual aircraft design.


The BAE Systems website state that they do in fact design aircraft.




We are the air sector arm of BAE Systems. We use our expertise to design and build fixed wing military aircraft and training aircraft, aswell as provide training, support and information services for the UK RAF and other customers worldwide.

www.baesystems.com...



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 08:44 AM
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a reply to: alldaylong

They're a subcontractor building actual aircraft anymore. They do build UAVs lately, but they haven't done a large aircraft in a rather long time. They do have the experience to design one, but lately they're primarily doing structures and components. They are responsible for some nice aircraft in the past though.



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 09:17 AM
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originally posted by: sHuRuLuNi

originally posted by: Kukri

Who would of thought Turkey had 10's of Billions to spend on 5th Gen fighter development.


You are kidding, right? Or did you really think Turkey is a "third world" country?

And no, they do not need oil black market.


Their military budget was $13.5 Billion US for 2015 The Us has spent almost $1 Trillion developing the F35 platforms at an estimated over run of $165 Billion and 7 years behind schedule. Even if you gave a development cost of $100 Billion and already have the stealth technology you've consumed 7 years of the military budget before you even have a production airframe.

This isn't even allowing for all the other hardware and operational costs for such an aircraft.

So please explain how a single country Turkey can afford a 5th Gen fighter when the combined budgets of the EU won't invest in such a platform unlike the Typhoon and Eurofighter and are depending on the US to do the majority of the heavy work for their 5th Gen fighter program.



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 09:35 AM
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a reply to: Kukri

The 1 trillion dollar figure for the F-35 is the total cost of the entire program over its entire life cycle, which includes development, manufacture and sustainment of over 2000 aircraft over 40 years. This is also accross 3 different variants of the same aircraft - CV, STOVL, and CTOL.

It is not the development cost. Also iirc, the figure has dipped below 1 trillion.
edit on 4/12/15 by C0bzz because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 10:30 AM
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originally posted by: C0bzz
a reply to: Kukri

The 1 trillion dollar figure for the F-35 is the total cost of the entire program over its entire life cycle, which includes development, manufacture and sustainment of over 2000 aircraft over 40 years. This is also accross 3 different variants of the same aircraft - CV, STOVL, and CTOL.

It is not the development cost. Also iirc, the figure has dipped below 1 trillion.


Fine I stand corrected in that the total project cost is approx $1 Trillion US and is not the development and production cost.

Even then as you read in my first post I gave an estimated cost of $100 Billion US for the development and I'll even add the production of a Turkish 5th Gen fighter which is the entire military budget for 7 years. This does not factor in lifetime costs or all the other projects Turkey has on the table at present. This is a pipe dream IMHO and going nowhere.


edit on 12/4/2015 by Kukri because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 01:28 PM
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Turkey is a partner country in F-35

www.f35.com...

This aircraft is projected to be an air superiority fighter. Turkry's version of the F-22



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 02:01 PM
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a reply to: Kukri

The F-35 is the most advanced fighter ever built. That means that it's going to cost a lot to develop. Just because it did, doesn't make it the benchmark for all fifth generation aircraft. Yes, it'll be expensive to develop, but it doesn't necessarily have to be even close to the cost of the F-35.



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 02:17 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

So, where did all that money go then?



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 02:20 PM
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a reply to: mbkennel

Which part of "the most advanced fighter ever built" did you miss? Many of the technologies used on the F-35 were either new, or much more advanced than the existing versions of the same technology.



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 07:35 PM
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originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Kukri

The F-35 is the most advanced fighter ever built. That means that it's going to cost a lot to develop. Just because it did, doesn't make it the benchmark for all fifth generation aircraft. Yes, it'll be expensive to develop, but it doesn't necessarily have to be even close to the cost of the F-35.


Thanks for responding Zaphod.

I'll defer to your expertise in this field and ask you the question of what do you think it would cost for a country like Turkey to develop a ground up 5th Gen fighter. Do you think $100 Billion US is excessive for such a program as I doubt we can get the numbers for the PAK-FA or J31 programs. I would also assume it's quite prohibitive seeing how the EU has decided to go with the American program rather than develop their own.
edit on 12/4/2015 by Kukri because: fixed the quotation



posted on Dec, 4 2015 @ 07:40 PM
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a reply to: Kukri

There are a huge number of variables involved. What type of speed do you want? Super cruise? Sensors? How many aircraft? Etc.

Best guess, ballpark is somewhere in that area. If they go for a relatively low end sensor platform they can bring the price down. Without knowing more details though, that's a WAG.
edit on 12/4/2015 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2015 @ 04:23 PM
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originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Kukri

There are a huge number of variables involved. What type of speed do you want? Super cruise? Sensors? How many aircraft? Etc.

Best guess, ballpark is somewhere in that area. If they go for a relatively low end sensor platform they can bring the price down. Without knowing more details though, that's a WAG.


Thanks again for your input Zaph it's appreciated.




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