Let's talk about lumping crazies & sane people.

So, I see a lot of lumpage, and I'm here to point it out. You can't simply have it both ways. When you become an adult you should understand you cant have your cake and eat it too. Also I'm writing this from an American point of view, other countries need to figure out there own issues with their constitution and leaders, so I can't speak for them. So here we go: If you are going to lump the crazies with guns with the sane people with guns, then you have to lump all American Muslims with Radical Islamist's. You simply can't have it both ways. I can see even on ATS most people are Dictionary challenged, but people who get it both ways are called HYPOCRITES.

I, personally, will not lump Muslim Americans with the crazies overseas, bc it's wrong. Also I will not lump crazy gun owners with responsible ones. If you take one side, you have to take the other, or your a HYPOCRITE.

Now, Lets talk about source and responsibility. You know, that sense of realizing only you are in charge of your life and RESPONSIBLE FOR YOU ACTIONS AND WHO YOU ASSOCIATE WITH. Seems to be in short demand in America these days. All I hear are Americans claiming to be either a #ing victim or they want to point blame at any source that they don't have to TAKE A PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR. Having responsibility means your NOT entitled to always have things go cozy and nice and easy for you. I grew up with nothing, worked hard, and I am young for the success I have attained now. My Point? How can anyone be a victim in the USA?! Jesus, have you seen what these other countries look like? Even growing up in a #ing ghetto I could see how cozy I had it as an American. I cant stand the whining. We got it real good compared to the rest of the world.

Radical Islam in 2015:
Source - Elite Arabs didn't curb the growth of young, impoverished, five year olds in their own back yard after 9/11 and now they formed ISIS, Boko, Deash, etc. You know, you cant have an effective radical army without young men and women to carry out your work, and with all the worlds oil money, they didn't stop this new batch from being created. And they think they can handle more nukes hahaha ... anyway.. it's a cut and dry source.

Responsibility - The Arab Elites, it's their backyard, they let it grow the last 15 years, they should be stopping this, but.. well.. they suck at it. Obviously, they had 15 years and all that money and couldn't figure out something as simple as NOT ALLOWING PSYCHO'S TO BRAINWASH THEIR COUNTRIES KIDS. And they think they can handle more nukes hahaha ... anyway.. it's a cut and dry responsible party.

Solution - Business as usual. The crazies will bite off more than they can chew and the worlds elite will have them put down. I personally have suggested other ways to deal with this, but my solutions require ADULTS TAKING RESPONSIBILITY to work and something tells me no one will do that and its easier to just namelessly bomb some cities, pass the buck, and use the peoples money to buy a new car to make yourself feel better.

Gun Violence in America - 2015
Source - Since you are innocent until proven guilty in America, until you commit a crime with a gun, your just a citizen with a gun. Even if you are crazy. So the source is obviously criminals or the mentally ill. Sane people who follow the law don't kill people. So by definition or what I like to call "Definitive Reality If You Follow The English Language" the source of gun violence are CRIMINALS AND THE MENTALLY ILL.

Responsibility - Now I could easily say that this is all about personal responsibility of the person behind the inanimate object they are about to hurt or kill someone with and I would be right. BUT in the big picture I truly feel responsibility lies on the politicians that allow their cities to go to # in the first place. If you cant handle the job or you suck at it, please stop taking the peoples money and find someone who is good at making sure a city doesn't turn into a violent cesspool. Just because you got voted in doesn't mean you should just STICK IT OUT and drag the poorest and most vulnerable people with you. AND GET PAID WHILE DOING IT. So I'm just going to leave it at that for responsibility, even though it can go way further. Even responsibility lies with the gun makers. They aren't in the cookie business and they know it. I am sure they can afford to carry some responsibility, and I here they do, but I just cant let them off the hook either. Ill get to that below.

Solution -

According to this chart we have roughly 10 deaths per 100k people in this country due to firearms. So lets do some basic math. 300 million people in USA divided by 100k people is 3k. 3k x 10 deaths per 100k people = 30kSO the USA has roughly 30k deaths per year by firearms.
According to the chart, 30k deaths a year puts us above the middle of the pack with other countries and how many firearm deaths occur. Now this number is NOT GOING TO JUST GO DOWN. There is no law, silver bullet, magic dust, get rich quick, solution. It is going to take YEARS and OVER TIME. And its going to take a game plan, so lets put one out.

Put of those 30k gun deaths, 11k are the murders. Lets just focus on that part for now. So lets pretend were the president and we are looking at a map of the country with all the gun deaths mapped out. You think to yourself...You have 11k murders by guns a year. You have 50 states. Which states governor's and politicians are #ing up?

It was easy to find Chicago's numbers on gun murders but it wasn't easy to find other cities. I am going off this site for the rest. www.nytimes.com...

Illinois, Chicago - 400 some gun murders this year so far. Seems like a good place to start. Then according to that list you got Baltimore and Detroit.

So the President calls a press meeting, the Governor's and Mayors from the above states and cities are with him and so is the NRA. Prez says we have a major issue with gun violence in these cities, we are all here to ask the American people to help us fix these cities. Donations, help, missionary work, etc. AND WE ALL GO THE # TO WORK AND SAVE OUR COUNTRIES CITIES FROM BEING OVER RUN BY CRIMINALS AND LOONEY TOONS. Suggesting that changing some laws would replace hard work and responsibility is the epitome of how #ing lazy our society has become. Look Wilford, If we simply change some laws, then we'll be entitled to safer streets.. meh.. WTF Really? How can this even be considered a real solution to anyone. That's there's some EASY WAY OUT of the nations problems. # if its that easy, I can change words on paper, I should be running this country. I can type and I even have a pen with an eraser!

If there was a clear plan and leadership the gun lobby's aren't going to turn down a plan to help these cities, so our rights don't change and these places that are dramatically raising our gun murders are fixed over time. This bull# about changing laws is like the laziest and insincere way I have ever heard of leaders or anyone for that matter, solving an issue. And that's it, over time if you target the worst areas, which obviously need our leaders help and the nations support, then slowly those numbers would go down and our rights wouldn't change.

Conclusion

Ugh.. I took up a whole page, didn't want this to be this long, oh well.

I hope I presented some good points and maybe everyone will realize they should choose a position that will help the greater good and a position of responsibility. I was raised in a way that I can never blame an inanimate object over the person using it. Or that an inanimate object is the actual excuse to any real problem. I am a roman catholic and ironically that faith has taught me it doesn't matter what my background is. What matters is how you treat Gods other children. If you treat them good, you go to Heaven. If you treat them bad, then your going to a place where your rusty penny is the virgin that everyone was waiting for to show up, with hot pokers. This is the heart of being religious or spiritual. And if your atheist, just use your moral compass. Also I know I may sound like I think everyone is stoopid, but that's not the case, I just really really like spelling things out so everyone understands what I am saying.

So let's not be hypocrites and lets not lump people together, we should all be on the same side. Lets do our best to call upon our leaders to fix these issues the right way, not a way that ensures a political or monetary gain. AND DEFINITELY NOT SOME QUICK FIX EASY WAY OUT. Since they got paid to make sure this didn't happen but still got all of us in this mess, the least they can do is some real #ing PR and social work to fix this, right?

a reply to: tonycodes

So, I see a lot of lumpage, and I'm here to point it out. You can't simply have it both ways. When you become an adult you should understand you cant have your cake and eat it too. Also I'm writing this from an American point of view, other countries need to figure out there own issues with their constitution and leaders, so I can't speak for them. So here we go: If you are going to lump the crazies with guns with the sane people with guns, then you have to lump all American Muslims with Radical Islamist's. You simply can't have it both ways. I can see even on ATS most people are Dictionary challenged, but people who get it both ways are called HYPOCRITES.

I, personally, will not lump Muslim Americans with the crazies overseas, bc it's wrong. Also I will not lump crazy gun owners with responsible ones. If you take one side, you have to take the other, or your a HYPOCRITE.

I have made this same analogy here and here in the past few days alone. Glad to see my posts have not fallen on deaf ears.

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: tonycodes

So, I see a lot of lumpage, and I'm here to point it out. You can't simply have it both ways. When you become an adult you should understand you cant have your cake and eat it too. Also I'm writing this from an American point of view, other countries need to figure out there own issues with their constitution and leaders, so I can't speak for them. So here we go: If you are going to lump the crazies with guns with the sane people with guns, then you have to lump all American Muslims with Radical Islamist's. You simply can't have it both ways. I can see even on ATS most people are Dictionary challenged, but people who get it both ways are called HYPOCRITES.

I, personally, will not lump Muslim Americans with the crazies overseas, bc it's wrong. Also I will not lump crazy gun owners with responsible ones. If you take one side, you have to take the other, or your a HYPOCRITE.

I have made this same analogy here and here in the past few days alone. Glad to see my posts have not fallen on deaf ears.

Definitely not on def ears, i noticed you aligning on some of these same points my friend... Sorry if this is kind of a double post but I figured I wasn't too close to anyone else s posts yet lol

... Yes, let's supply the Ghettos with crats of guns and ammunition sk people can protect themselves from Gun violence.

It's foolproof.

originally posted by: 0hlord
... Yes, let's supply the Ghettos with crats of guns and ammunition sk people can protect themselves from Gun violence.

It's foolproof.

Reread the OP a few dozen times, you might not knee jerk spew the same "lets give them all guns, that will solve it" bs and actually be able to form your own thought on something.

originally posted by: 0hlord
... Yes, let's supply the Ghettos with crats of guns and ammunition sk people can protect themselves from Gun violence.

It's foolproof.

thats not what i suggested... that would be stupid

a reply to: Sublimecraft

Im a big fan of your unsolved xfiles as well... when the world isnt turning itself inside out, im usually on ATS for to read the kind of threads you make actually lol

Completely agree, it's happening everywhere.

All police are racist and want to hurt us.
All Republicans are racist.
All Muslims are terrorist.
All gun owners want to shoot us.
All people on welfare are just lazy and need to go to work.

None of those are true. Yet there are pages of threads on ATS where people will argue for half those statements and against half those statements.

a reply to: tonycodes

There's not much I can add, except that I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, I have little faith that our 'leaders' are anything more than opportunistic political hypocrites.

a reply to: vor78

I know TPTB read ATS, I can clearly see topics and narrative started here that ends up almost verbatim on tv... i am hoping not only the elite see this but also americans on ATS might see this and stop being divided and realize common ground is hard for opportunistic politicians, but it is not that hard to find common ground between us civilians of all backgrounds. And we dont have to follow these politicians on there career goals. ive been on ATS a few years but never wrote this much on here... im just trying to do something to help.

I will only say this. What defines sanity. Because a man in the clouds sounds insane to me. Also an entire society armed for the sake of lets say principle seems insane to me as well. Is any of this really rational.

double post... not sure why that happened

originally posted by: Looselungjones
I will only say this. What defines sanity. Because a man in the clouds sounds insane to me. Also an entire society armed for the sake of lets say principle seems insane to me as well. Is any of this really rational.

Good point, lets say sane people are the ones not killing other people.

a reply to: tonycodes

You sure about that . So are our troops insane. Are officers gunning down unarmed civilians. Is the death row executioner. Or how about the ones giving the orders. I used periods not questions marks for a reason.

a reply to: tonycodes
To be honest, I didn't read every word, but I certainly read enough to get the gist of what you're saying and know that I basically agree. I've been trying to sort out my thoughts on all of this and thinking about writing a thread, but didn't know what the point would be... Seems like your thread touches on some of the same points, so I'll just ramble here, if you don't mind. My thoughts may be unrelated and seem disjointed. Sorry.

I would venture to guess that NO ONE will agree with all of my points, because I'm not going to take a political position on this. More a practical one. No one seems to want to be very practical about this. But we'll see.

1. The political left wants to go after guns. Obama has been emotionally-driven and has acted with the knee-jerk response of "Gotta do something about gun laws!" every chance he gets. Here's a suggestion about gun laws: Enforce the ones on the books before starting to make new ones that won't be enforced! THEN work on controlling loopholes and expanding background checks, if necessary. New gun control laws wouldn't have made any difference in any of the mass shootings we've experienced. The people committing these atrocities don't give a crap about gun laws! You're a smart man, Obama. Don't act so stupid.

2. The political right wants to go after Muslims. The right is as emotional and as hypocritical as the left on this issue. There's nothing wrong with religion. It's as benign and non-dangerous as that 'gun sitting on the table' that gun proponents always use to show the innocence of guns. The problem lies within the people who USE that religion or that gun to perpetrate violence and death on those with whom they disagree.

3. It's the mindset of a mass murderer that is the problem. It's the mindset that says, "If I want to, I can kill a bunch of people, and I'm justified." The people doing this kind of thing have something in common in their mindset and that needs to be explored. They aren't necessarily "crazy people", but there's something that gives them the idea that they're justified in doing what they do for a "greater cause". My guess is that they feel helpless in life and have never really taken responsibility for their actions, but rather blamed everything they do, and everything that "goes badly" in their lives, on something or someone else.

4. I said going after religion isn't the answer. However, if people are learning in religious organizations that their deity WANTS them to kill others for the "greater cause" (therefore giving them that justification), then those religious organizations have to be stopped. They are the Stochastic Terrorists of our time.

France recently closed down 3 mosques because they were found to be "radicalizing" their flock. I fully support this move. If a religious organization is "preaching" politics, in ANY FORM, they should be SHUT DOWN. With the way religion works, coupled with people who don't take responsibility for their actions, these people feel that they are doing "God's work" or killing "in Allah's name", so they are not bothered by what THEY have done, because they did it for their God.

So, whether religious organizations are preaching about infidels or abortion, extremism or gun laws, they shouldn't be permitted to operate. We need to stop being so afraid of religion and do what is necessary to stop the justification of this radical mindset.

5, The media has to own their part and report more factually and less sensationally. The way they cover these mass shootings makes "heroes" out of the shooters (to those who would copy them or support their cause). And, depending on the politics of the news station, they USE these killings for ratings. That's just wrong on so many levels! But, we, the people, suck it up like it's the best thing we've ever tasted and we beg for more and more. Does it really matter where the woman in San Bernardo's tragedy was BORN??? Really? Do you have to know that? For what?

Now, enforcing current gun laws and shutting down mosques and churches won't guarantee less shootings, because we have radicalized people like Dylann Roof, who wasn't driven by a religious ideology, but by a racist ideology, which is also something we need to investigate.

Finally, there is no one answer. This is a very complex and nuanced issue. We can't just toss a blanket on it (new gun laws or a Muslim database) and expect any change at all. This is going to take a lot of time and study, and SOMEONE (government?) is going to have to make some tough decisions... But the right/left division in government today makes it IMPOSSIBLE for these morons to come together on anything. They are as ideologically driven to impede progress as the killers are to wipe out their 'enemies'. As long as we continue to argue over which one answer to implement, we're going nowhere but downhill.

As long as WE adapt these same ideological positions about gun laws vs religion as the political left/right continue to take, we are part of the problem. We contribute to the Stochastic Terrorism of our time.

a reply to: Looselungjones

well not sure you why you would bring up soldiers and cops, were talking about citizens who are killing people.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

thank you for your thoughts, i agree that finding the practical and realistic solution is tough in this, but its only going to happen when the country comes together and we have leaders that can actually find common ground in spite of their political career.

the other side is already showing up trying to change the subject and direction of my OP... this is so sad, you can post the sky is blue and you will still have someone paid to say the sky is red

tagging in for now

like u said each should mind their own

my only question is what can be done in reality (at this points it's purely rhetorical question no need to answer)