The Atlantis That Was- And Is

I think we all got to see what happened to Atlantis, in the tragic events of the past year. I still believe Atlantis is right where Plato said it is (on a Continent West of the Straits of Gibraltar), in the Americas. I am not saying that it is in Indonesia, or in Florida- just that we have witnessed- first in Florida and now in Indonesia- what may have happened to Atlantis. Notice that I used the past tense (what happened) and present tense (Atlantis is). We all assume Atlantis physically sunk, like a boat, never to rise again. Well, the coastal areas around the Indian Ocean sank- for a few minutes. Then the ocean receded. Leaving a wrecked maritime civilization that, without the intervention of outside maritime powers, would have ceased to be a player on the oceans of the world for generations. I think Plato was right: Atlantis sunk. And like Indonesia, the waters receded and left Atlantis (the land) right where it was. On the coastal plains of the Americas. An innundation- caused by hurricanes, tsunami, vulcanism or impact- followed by an immediate recession of the waves, would leave the land intact but destroy the maritime infrastructure- and end the world travels of the maritime civilization of Atlantis for generations.

You've no doubt heard of the story of that part of Crete was blown away in a volcanic explosion some five-thousand odd years ago...

You're close...

But, over 85% of ALL Tsunamis happen in the Pacific Ocean, even the recent one was more of a fluke....

Plato describes the CITY of Atlantis being "midway, on the continent's longest side", it's a rectangular plain, surrounded by low mountains, with a canal to the sea, alternating belts of sea and land.

In the Altiplano of Bolivia, we match all of this. Furthermore, there is a local legend of a mighty city, destroyed by a flood. The Altiplano region has a history of this.

At the site, you can find ruins of red, black, and white stone, just as in Plato's tale.

Check out the link in my first post, Gazrok. I agree with you. They are finding evidence of massive ancient coastal inundations all along the Atlantic coasts of the Americas. I agree with you that Bolivia is a candidate for the location of the capital city. We know that release of tectonic strain through earthquakes prevents larger megaquakes, and the relative 'silence' on the Atlantic side does not mean that strain is not building up. There have been huge quakes on the Atlantic side, up into the Gulf (e.g., the New Madrid quake). Megatsunami are also generated by oceanic meteor impacts. I think that what we just witnessed in the Indian Ocean is both a wake up call to the rest of us who dwell near coastlines, and a confirmation that Plato's tale is all too plausible.

I have spent a lot of time in the field examining scarp faces, and there are places in the Americas where you can observe uplift of hundreds of feet that to my eyes look like they occured in one event. I have a feeling we have never witnessed in our recorded history a really big earthquake, nor a truly colossal volcanic outburst (Krakatoa notwithstanding). I remember talking with Eugene Shoemaker one day, years ago about oceanic meteor strikes, and I asked him how big a wave could be. He told me to read Genesis.

As for Santorini, 'Westward, beyond the Pillars of Hercules' describes a location out in the Atlantic ('Atlantic' = 'Ocean of Atlantis'). The dating of many American pyramids remains in doubt, and I have a feeling the step pyramid may have moved Eastward to Egypt by way of the sea, long before anyone can imagine. Autopilot is right, Santorini was a colossal outburst; see this link.

In the photos from the Indian Ocean we are seeing blue water fishing vessels thrown inland, backs broken and their captains dead from the wave or the ensuing plagues of water-borne diseases. This megadestruction would be a death-blow to an ancient sailing empire, with the loss of infrastructure and more importantly, know-how. Most of the men who knew how to build ships and navigate would be dead. It would take a long time- if ever- to reconstruct a sailing navy with men who know how to navigate.

I think the Amerindians are the survivors of the Atlantean catastrophe, with of course a lot of flavor thrown in by Asian and African, European and Australian wanderers and seafarers over the ages.

We can deflect asteroids. But is there a way to relieve tectonic strain through mega-engineering projects? Or to vent supercaldera using tunnel boring machines? Or are we destined to be blown back into the stone age by unstoppable events? Man we need to get off this planet. We've got all our eggs in one basket.

[edit on 6-1-2005 by Chakotay]

Scientist are looking for it in the desert of Africa.

Very true, Ancient Sailor. The geologic record of West Africa points to recurrent inundations. While they don't happen often by human standards of time, they do occur, periodically.

I was watching a show on National Geographic about two possible locations of Atlantis. One is frozen under the north pole or around the arctic sea, i cant remember. Another was actually around SE Asia where the latest Tsunami hit. Where all the islands branch off and go towards Australia. Apparently those islands are the peaks of underwater mountians. The whole place used to be above sea level but now it is sunk. Japanese archeologist have been finding very sophisticated underwater pyramids, roads, and other structures.They even found a giant face carved into the side of a structure. Interesting stuff, I will try to find a link with pics.

Thanks, Halcyon.

The US Government has been interested in Atlantis from the beginning. Just look at the Space Shuttle fleet. I think there has been a concerted effort to marginalize and obfuscate Atlantis with all the Cayce and New Age BS, and now pseudoscientific efforts to draw attention away from Plato's localization of Atlantis in the Americas.

Why hide Atlantis, except to initiates?

I can think of two reasons. First, to keep the masses pacified: what happened then (inundation) can happen now. If all the coastwise folks pack up and move out, imagine the impact on real estate prices! Second, if the legend in the Timaeus is substantially true, Atlantis invaded the Mediterranean by sea. It could be very embarassing politically if it were known that some of the Mediterranean Peoples are Amerindians. Sailing canoes go both ways today- and I am sure they went both ways back then.

Two decades ago there were huge debates about uniformitarianism (the idea that all geological change proceeds gradually by processes observable in the here and now). We would find sand dollars on top of coastal mountains- not fossils, and not thrown out by kids, but sand dollars in sand deposits that are recent in geological terms, not cemented but loose sand- and we were told that they got there by uplift. Now we know they got there through the agency of a megatsunami.

We ain't seen nothin' yet- and hopefully we won't, in our lifetimes.

[edit on 7-1-2005 by Chakotay]

Originally posted by Chakotay
Check out the link in my first post, Gazrok. I agree with you. They are finding evidence of massive ancient coastal inundations all along the Atlantic coasts of the Americas.

Actually, on any side of the coast that touched water... Atlantic, Pacific, Gulf of Mexico.

However, these aren't sudden events. They're gradual; they occur from the end of the Pleistocene onwards (20,000 years ago and less) and they are accompanied with changes in the fish/shellfish and plants along the coast (and civilizations) that show climate change. This is to be expected -- as the ice age ended and the planet got wrmer, the water in the oceans rose.

I have spent a lot of time in the field examining scarp faces, and there are places in the Americas where you can observe uplift of hundreds of feet that to my eyes look like they occured in one event.

It does happen... but check the geology of the area. A lot of times those scarps occur when a harder surface layer of rock is eroded more slowly than the softer layers below. This is very common -- some classic examples are in the Devils' River area of Texas (or along the edges of the Llano Estacado) where the very hard Edwards limestone is a "caprock" for the softer formations underneath.

\The dating of many American pyramids remains in doubt, and I have a feeling the step pyramid may have moved Eastward to Egypt by way of the sea, long before anyone can imagine.

There's not THAT much doubt about their ages.

Now, I did see the recent archaeological news about the pyramids here in Peru that date to 3,000 BC -- but there's no cultural link to Egypt in this material (no similarity in technology, or pottery styles or clothing, etc): www.sciencedaily.com...

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Great thread Chakotay - thanks. Well presented and articulated. Obvious stuff to me - can't begin to imagine why educated thinkers balk at the evidence, although ignorance and the resultant psychological fragility clearly breed the need for religious explanations, intervention and authority... Interesting about those Japanese archeaological finds too Halcyon.

Originally posted by Byrd
... these aren't sudden events. They're gradual

Hey Byrd - I respect you but I'm getting the sense that you question cataclysm across the board. ...There is substantial proof that cataclysms DO happen, and have astounding effects. Just like December's tsunami. ...So why doeth you protest so much?

...I also think it is self-evident that individual and cultural health can only be built on truth. Comments?


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Check out the link in my first post, Gazrok. I agree with you.

Except that you believe the continent was inundated.... Personally, I think this is an error (or a deliberate lie on the part of the Phoenicians) in either his translation of the tale from Solon, or that Solon was incorrect about it. Simply put, there is no evididence for any landmass as large as Plato stated, sinking. So, given that Atlantis was the name of the city and the continent, it makes more sense that the city is what was sunk....not the continent.

Northern tip of Aceh province in the western Indonesian island of Sumatra

BEFORE





and AFTER




www.earthfiles.com...

Notice some of the land is permanently sunk. Imagine multiple 9.0 earth quakes going off around one continent. Its the Mantle that causes the earthquakes and its the Mantle that supports our crust. What if a portion of the Mantle became unstable and then crumbled into the molten center of earth's core. The crust would cave in until the surrounding material in the Mantle fille the hole.

Thanks, Soficrow. Great pic, LostInSpace!

Originally posted by Gazrok
Except that you believe the continent was inundated.... So, given that Atlantis was the name of the city and the continent, it makes more sense that the city is what was sunk....not the continent.

Again we agree, Gazrok. What I believe, is that the continent- North, Central, and South- has been inundated periodically and piecemeal, on the coastal margins. Say, an event plastering the Gulf up into the Mississippi Valley, or the Eastern Seaboard up to the Appalachians, or the Isthmus, or the Atlantic coast of South America with a mirror event on the other side of the Atlantic. To take your Bolivian example, uplift combined with tsunami effects would definitely end any transatlantic intercourse for generations.

I do not subscribe to a catastrophist explanation for everything in the geological record, Byrd. But some of the things I have seen out in the field have given me a gut feeling that Mother Nature needs far more respect than even the Native people give Her.

[edit on 7-1-2005 by Chakotay]

Originally posted by soficrow
Hey Byrd - I respect you but I'm getting the sense that you question cataclysm across the board.

Not quite true. In fact, I support a number of cataclysms such as the Krakatoa volcano, the Yellowstone eruption, the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs, and a lot of other things.

HOWEVER... ya gotta remember that I am taking courses in archaeology and have been on a dig and am currently doing archaeological research. I don't claim to know everything, but I do tend to be skeptical about a lot of fantasical claims.

For instance, I know about the coasts and the rise and fall of the seashore and that it was gradual because of this experience. The ancient climatology effects are part of a current paper I'm working on, and things like patterns of pollen found in trash heaps and so forth are important. I am aware of patterns of tsunamis and underwater landslides.

I know these things sound like casual dismissial to people -- I'm trying to NOT heap down on people's heads the terribly long and dry papers that I read and the laboratory and physical evidence around this stuff.

Not that I'm always right, mind you. But to date there hasn't been a shred of evidence beyond a tale of Plato's.

As an undergrad, I repeated what my professors knew. As a grad student, I began to discover what they never dreamed of...

Check out this Oracle site made by a group of new students. They point out that academia also frowned on another Greek legend: Troy. Until Heinrich Schliemann dug with an open mind right where Homer told him to.

Keep digging

You sily goose, the lost city of Atlantis is ona a planet in the Pegasus galaxy, I thought every one has basically agreed on that

Anyways, I think that the Crete scenario is the most palusible explanation than any others. It it bleievved that a miscommunication resulted from the word "between" becoming the word "larger than" so Stlantis became larger than two continents instead of between the two.

No Ronii, Plato locates Atlantis West of the Strait of Gibraltar. Crete is East of the Strait. If it was Crete, we'd have the Cretan Ocean (sorry, but you really cheered me up!).

A lot of authors are promoting Mediterranean locations, but Plato is quite clear: the invaders came from the Great Ocean to the East.

Some people do name Ireland, England etc. as the homeland...

But sculptures show the invaders wearing feathered war-bonnets.

[edit on 8-1-2005 by Chakotay]

Originally posted by Byrd
I know about the coasts and the rise and fall of the seashore and that it was gradual because of this experience. ...I am aware of patterns of tsunamis and underwater landslides.

So despite tsunamis and underwater landslides, coastlines still only change gradually?

...Keep diggin' - but don't forget, your profs, sources and mentors have a big stake in protecting dogma and hence, their own place in the academic hierarchy.

Also, if you ever have the time, take a peek at the history of Western academia's acceptance of cataclysmic theory, its rather unique relation to Western thought, and its roots in Biblical 'history.' You might find the effort fairly illuminating...

Love ya. Really.



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The worse it gets: here's some scientific confirmation of doomsday tectonics in our own backyard.

The recent earthquakes in Sumatra is proof enough that land masses can sink. suddenly. The same will happen to us, it's not a question of if, but when. So, it is entirely possible that the continent of Atlantis did sink.

However, is it because of natural causes? There is a case that the up surge in tectonic activity is due to human actions of oil drilling and/or nuclear weapon testing. In the Mahabharata, it is recorded, that a great cataclysmic war using weapons of mass destruction caused entire cities to sink. It is possible, that the great biblical flood, was caused by a massive war.

However, the time Mahabharata is thought to have happened, was 5,000 to 10,000 years ago. Plato did not exist(427BC). So if Atlantis did exist in Plato's time it could not have sank due to the Mahabharata war. Further, it could have not have sank during the great flood as spoken about in the Gilgamesh either(2500-2700BC)

So Atlantis did not sink due to a great flood or a great cataclysm, for if it was a great cataclysm powerful enough to sink a continent, it would have had global ramifications. So, either Plato fabricated his story of Atlantis or Plato's Atlantis simply did not exist. It is also possible Plato was talking in past-tense "the land of Atlantis that was"

[edit on 16-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]