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I Hate the Abortion Issue

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posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 11:55 AM
a reply to: Metallicus

Great post.

I have looked at abortion from the same angles you have, plus from the perspective of natural law and my faith, and I've come to pretty much the same conclusions. I am not pro-abortion, but I have to be pro-choice for now.

Abortions have been happening for time immemorial. Even the Old Testament talks about a temple priest performing an abortion. (I haven't read the story for years though, so I can't tell you the particulars of it). Nature itself provides the means to induce abortions. We cannot stop it... to even try, we would have to monitor the menstrual periods of every woman during her entire childbearing years, because women can use herbs and other natural abortifacients to perform their own abortions.

I would much prefer to see us do more as a society to ensure that no one feels abortion is their best or only option... for that matter, I'd like to do more as a society to take care of those who are already here, and that would probably eliminate the need for most abortions anyway. Fat chance... I know...

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 12:04 PM
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Salpingectomy is the surgical removal of a Fallopian tube( and the embryo ) which some would call an abortion. It is the preferred method because the high rate of recurrence in ectopic pregnancies. But there are ovarian tube sparing alternatives. It's semantics really, since the word abortion is related to the removal of the embryo or fetus whether it's done by a pill early in the pregnancy or surgically late term.

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 12:07 PM
Contraception rather than abortion is always the preferred way to approach the problem of an unwanted pregnancy.

But I don't want anyone telling me how to deal with my OWN body....please allow me the FREEDOM to make my own decisions, suffer the consequences or reap the benefits.

Take personal responsibility for your own life and mind your own business....

I had a vasectomy when I was twenty because I knew that children had no place in my lifestyle. I have never regretted that decision!

edit on 2-12-2015 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 12:09 PM

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Metallicus

You can always adopt my stance on abortion. I rejected the popular narratives from both "sides" of the argument & reached my own conclusions. I'm against abortion but I don't want the mothers or the unborn children to suffer or die. So I simply focus on ways to prevent abortions in the first place.

1. Contraceptives. I think people should be on contraceptives to eliminate "unwanted" or "unexpected" pregnancies. This includes a male contraceptive (after all, it takes 2 to make a pregnancy). I don't believe in going far enough to mandate it, but I do think easy access to contraceptives will reduce the need for abortions.

2. Zero tolerance for rape. Society needs to have a true "War on Rape". Rape needs to become so harshly punished, stigmatized and repulsive to society that people don't even consider raping someone to be an option. I believe this for many reasons, but one outcome would be the elimination of abortions due to rape.

3. Find out all of the possible medical conditions that can force a pregnant woman to choose between herself & her unborn child, then make our healthcare system focus on finding cures/solutions for them. We did it with polio so surely we can do it for our women and children. Death-by-childbirth should be a relic of the past, not a daily occurrence in an "advanced" society.

4. Adoption. I'd prefer a mother give her child up for adoption over aborting the pregnancy. There are so many couples out there that want kids but can't physically have them. So this is pretty much a matchmaking option. (note: We have to be careful with this though. Many child trafficking rings start off as adoption agencies. Then they start making more money than they expected and become corrupted, usually by pressuring poor women to give up their children or pretending the child died in childbirth when it really didn't. There must be real safeguards to prevent that crap from happening with this option.)

5. I doubt you'll agree with this one because you're a libertarian. But I honestly think couples should either have to register (like for voting) or have to get a free "parenting license" in order to have children. The details could be worked out later, but I think couples should sign a legal contract/form that shows they understand the risks, rights, privileges, and responsibilities that come with being parents. That license/contract is legally binding and ensures they know about child support laws, child abuse & neglect laws, and the such (as well as the punishments for abandoning children). It would also guarantee that they know they're legally responsible for taking care of their children.

I'm a socialist, so I have no problem with a strong social safety net. But I also think parents should man up/woman up & take care of their responsibilities first. So this license would be more about teaching the risks & rewards of having children. If they realize they're not ready, they can stay on contraceptives. But if they believe they're ready, they can do so.

I agree with every word you said and it deserves quoting so it's not lost on people.

I also agree vehemently with Metallicus, and also BenevolentHeretic.

In fact, Benevolent's first posted summed up my thoughts exactly (the three stages of acceptance you could call them).

I think abortion is a disgusting part of civilised 2015/going on 16...

I also think, to reinstate what you say Enlightened, that more solutions should be made available.

I'd also add a solution of my own...

That of education.
Sex education is all throughout schooling, including the staunchly Catholic school I attended...
But nary a word of abortion was mentioned while I was there, and I bet that spans across millions of children's educational upbringing.

Now some will argue that it infringes separation of C&S...
But when taking into account how many people attend highly religious schools who up until now, are very much against condoms and abortion...

Well what happened to "no child left behind"...
And giving them a "head start along the way"...

Didn't George Carlin state succinctly that "someone's losing some f#ing ground here"...

***Drops Mic***

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 12:27 PM

originally posted by: Metallicus
but, I also have these beliefs...

I believe in individual liberty above all things.

I believe people have the right to make their own decisions.

Let me help you out:

(1) If you believe in the natural right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and you believe that abortion is the murder of a human being, doesn't that human being have the right to its own individual life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Abortion denies them this natural right.

(2) Abortion stops the murdered human being from the right to make its own decision, so while I get that you are conflicted about the mother's ability to decide for herself, you seem to believe that the fetus is its own individual human being, therefore the mother's decision doesn't only affect her, it affects someone who can't defend itself with its own decision. With that in mind, I would say that an abortion is not a right that the mother has the ability make on behalf of the other human being.

Maybe that'll help you out, maybe it won't, but that's how I look at it: The liberty to make decisions in your own interest stops when it will take the life of someone else.

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 12:32 PM
a reply to: Metallicus

The abortion debate isn't going away. imo it is the single issue that defines the major difference between conservatives and progressives; everything else can be negotiated to a point.

With women the largest voting demographic, the coming 16 elections could hinge on this very issue.

How will it turn out? idk but it hasn't worked out well strategically for the GOP in the past. Perhaps it will be different this time.

Of course this is taking into consideration the elections and voting actually make a difference. Jeb in 16....that's my story and I'm stickin to it.

edit on 2-12-2015 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 12:34 PM
a reply to: SlapMonkey

What choices do babies & foetus' make?

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 12:46 PM
a reply to: Metallicus

My problem is this...
I believe abortion is the murder of an unborn human.
I am against killing for any reason except in self-defense.
but, I also have these beliefs...
I believe in individual liberty above all things.
I believe people have the right to make their own decisions.

When I was a teenager, abortions were still mostly frowned upon in every corner and there were no freebie government hand-out clinics. If an unmarried female got pregnant, there were what was then called cloths-hanger take-outs available by knowing the right person. Basically, the cervix was penetrated and the interior drained & swiped.

Then came birth control when females 18 and over could go and get 'the pill'. From there, a black market formed for girls under 18 and so the pill was basically available to all... but not always free or even cheap.

Those were tough times, back in the late 1960s. On one occasion, a girl I was dating when I was 16 came by and said she wanted to introduce me to her uncle. When I went out, I was tossed into the back of a car with her and we then sped off to Ridgeland, SC... which had a reputation for marrying kids who had crossed the 'preggo line'. Along the way, I was informed she had missed her period and her uncle was going to hold a shotgun wedding.

Fortunately, when we got there... the courthouse was closed (I forget why) and on the way back, she started into her monthly cycle. I was dropped off in downtown Savannah where I had to catch a city bus back home.

I never dated her again.

But, back to subject... 'the pill' is easily available everywhere these days. Even the Morning After Pill. Unwanted pregnancy has no excuses anymore. If one is sexually active at an incredibly young age, birth control can be found.

With that in mind, I don't see any reason for the abortion clinic industry except to sell off the parts of those infants they've killed.

IMESHO, that is.

edit on 2-12-2015 by redoubt because: Typo

edit on 2-12-2015 by redoubt because: Typo curse strikes twice

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 01:12 PM
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Salaams, man. Hope all is well with you.

Yeah, I definitely agree that sex education needs to be a part of it, too. When I was in high school, we had a "General Wellness" class that briefly touched on sexual reproduction (in the deep South). Of course, most of the students were already sexually active by then, so it kind of defeated the purpose.

Anyway, the class never mentioned anything about abortion either & was mostly from an "abstinence only" point of view. In fact, the teacher was genuinely shocked when everyone told him how sexually active they were. He honestly thought everyone was just going to wait for marriage the way he did. This was incredibly ironic to me since he was also the head coach of the football team, and everyone at the school knew about the team's "exploits".

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 01:48 PM
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

You missed the entire point of my comment, which was directed to Metallicus.

But to reiterate, if one believes that all humans have natural rights, such as 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,' abortion--assuming one believe the fetus to be its own individual, as Metallicus appears to--violates those rights and kills a human being. ETA: No amount of individual decision making or rights should be allowed to take the life of another human being--there is no justification for that, save to protect one's own right to their life.

But enough with addressing your strawman question--again, I was replying directly to Metallicus in order to try to show him that the things that he is struggling with are nullified by the first two bullet points that he lists as beliefs. I'm more interested in his views on it rather than random, unnecessary questions.

No offense...I just don't have the energy to entertain tangents today.

edit on 2-12-2015 by SlapMonkey because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 01:48 PM
I haven't looked at anybody'e replies, I will do...

IMO Abortion is something that you cannot have a definitive opinion on unless you are in that situation yourself be it the bearer of the child or the partner or that person.

You can have a positional leaning, but it is something that unless you are there with that dilemma you cannot answer it, nor should you judge people's actions if they themselves have gone through with it.

However, there is a preventative (bar traumatic impregnating experiences and feotal medical reasons)
Contraception (In the UK free, alongside factual Sex Ed, although still needs improvement). If you have that under control then an abortion is the most traumatic and expensive form of it.

Education is key. Ignorance leads to unwanted pregnancies.

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 01:52 PM
a reply to: MrsNonSpecific

Bingo education is the answer to so much. Plus funding to sex education programs for adults. The last thing women need in the usa is PP to be shut down.

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 01:56 PM

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: MrsNonSpecific

Bingo education is the answer to so much. Plus funding to sex education programs for adults. The last thing women need in the usa is PP to be shut down.

Sorry, PP?

How much is birth control in the US? and do you get as much choice as in the UK? Or more cos it's private?

1. Combi pill (various brands)
2. Progesterone Only pill (various brands)
3. Diaphragm
4. Implant
5. Coil
6. Injection

All free.

Except the morning after pill which if you are 25 is £20!!

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 01:59 PM
a reply to: MrsNonSpecific

Planned parenthood in the states.
I dunno how much it is im also a brit

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 02:01 PM
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic


posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 02:49 PM
a reply to: Metallicus

Nearly identical feelings to yours on this. I don't quite think of it as "murder of the unborn", but, like probably almost everybody on the planet, I don't like the idea of abortion one bit. Bleh, was writing more, but it became an exercise in exactly why the issue sucks. It boils down to: it sucks really, really bad, but in today's world, it's better that it's an option than not.

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 03:44 PM

originally posted by: Metallicus
I hate the abortion issue. It is my main source of frustration when trying to piece together my world view. Nearly every other issue I can come to a logical conclusion on, but this one issue seems incapable of being resolved logically.

My problem is this...

I believe abortion is the murder of an unborn human.

# ^^^^Your belief ... obviously not the belief of the woman

who finds herself with an unplanned/ unwanted pregnancy for (whatever

reason) Her belief is otherwise - and as an unborn foetus has no

chance of existing outside of the woman it is termination not murder.

I believe in individual liberty above all things.
I believe people have the right to make their own decisions.

If you truly believe that! What was the point of this thread?

I cannot possibly resolve this issue logically given the above beliefs. What I have ended up with as a position is that since I cannot personally reconcile this issue then I must leave it up to the individual to make their own decision. I also believe that if I am going to make an error in judgement I would rather err on the side of personal liberty

# TO RIGHT So leave it be .... You would be surprised at how

many women you know or meet and in your circle that have possibly

had an abortion. Its something *personal* so I doubt that they are likely

to raise it as a subject of conversation!

Anyway, I really hate the abortion issue and I can't be the only one that has this internal conflict.

You really hate abortion? ..... SO DONT HAVE ONE

If you don't stick your nose in someone else's problem ... you wont be

troubled with *this internal conflict* Do I need to remind you said at the


1) You believe above all things in individual liberty

2) And you believe that people have the right to make their own decisions

So none of it is your problem is it?

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 06:51 PM
a reply to: Metallicus

Hmm i can think of a lot of people who should have been abortions. besides a gathering of cells without conciosness
is just that, a bunch of cells.
It may grow to become a new ghandi or a new hitler i dont care if not fully developed its just cells.

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 08:57 PM
a reply to: olaru12

At TWENTY wow, I know of one friend who did this at 25..

This topic makes me scratch my head the most when I see and hear from women who are on the 5th plus abortion, I think they need to make it harder for these people to get pregnant, when clearly they are more concerned with partying and thinking later.

Makes me want a vasectomy, and everyone I know has considered them a lot, ahhh it is sad that society just blazes along and thinks this is a nice viable solution that needs to be at the forefront.

posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 10:23 PM
Another thing that isn't mentioned a lot of times in these threads is something that seems to have been pushed to the sidelines more and more over the last few decades.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. For males and females.

In order to get pregnant, usually one has to have sex. If you are too young to be a responsible parent, or if you are in a situation where it would be such a tremendous financial burden that it would be detrimental to the child's life, or if pregnancy would result in the possibility of having an abortion simply for the reason of birth control, it just makes sense to at least use contraception when having sex, or (GASP!) maybe just don't have sex, maybe?

NOT having sex never killed anyone. I think it's sad that a lot of young people think that there is some inborn RIGHT to having sex, and just consider it FINE to do so irresponsibly, resulting in a pregnancy and termination.

There is NOTHING wrong with doing the responsible thing, and just not have sex, and if you do, using contraception. I don't care that the Catholic church, or the Pope, or whomever, (IMO) says or thinks contraception is wrong! The church won't be the ones responsible for raising the child, or trying to see to it that the child has a decent life,

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