A closer look at the idea of sacrifice

Rather than reply to any one person specifically, I will just reply to the whole group and clarify a bit more what I mean when I say that life is made up of sacrifices. In the OP, I defined sacrifice as:

an act of giving up something in order to get or do something else or to help someone.

First, I need to respond to those questioning the definition of sacrifice. As another person on this thread correctly pointed out, if you are going to apply your own definition, then the whole philosophy which I'm espousing unravels. Let us agree that the term is to be understood as I defined it - not as you, Ayn Rand, or anyone else defines the term.

However, even taken the definition as I've given it, I've come to realize that it requires clarification. The words, "an act of giving up" seem to indicate something voluntary. This is not at all what I mean by these words - the giving up can be voluntary or involuntary. Sacrifice can be thought of as belonging to four categories:

1). voluntary/positive
2). involuntary/positive
3). voluntary/negative
4). involuntary/ negative

What most people think of as "sacrifice" tends to fall under the first category. This is when you willfully give up something for something good - this can be for something you want or need. Under this category fall spending money to buy clothes, food, etc. Also included in this category would be a soldier sacrificing his/her life for the rest of the platoon.

The second category has to do with giving up something that gets something you want or need, but the giving up was not controlled by you. Under this category fall, for example, basic automatic processes. When we breathe, we give up carbon dioxide, but take in oxygen. We are constantly giving up small amounts of heat via energy.

The third category involves willfully giving up something with a negative net result. To this category would belong suicides and using drugs which cause brain damage.

The fourth category involves not so much a giving as it is something being taken. Under this category fall being sick and being the victim of a crime.

I hope that even if you disagree with my notion of sacrifice, this at least clarifies where I stand and what this philosophy is about.

a reply to: scorpio84

It is from a personal perspective, that is why the qualification, voluntary/involuntary-positive/negative are given.
Why there seems to be question of 'giving up something in order to get or do something else or to help someone'
But these personal qualifications have no place, in sacrifice there is no choice, sacrifice is not a choice.

It is about seeing and doing, if you see someone that is in need, you'll help (i hope).
qualifications have no place in that, one doesn't help because one is taught to do that, one does help because it is needed at that moment.
There is no question of choice, there is question of act.
That is virtue and intelligence.

If one helps because one must do so according to what he or she has been taught, it becomes an commercial act because there is a personal gain (i'm good)

Of course we can limit ourselves to daily life, but that to me is a very superficial view on sacrifice.
Our brain is simply commercial, unless there is something to gain for us, we won't do a thing.
So we'll get out of bed in order to make money, despite that we hate our job, we'll chase after success in order to be someone, we'll be the best sheep in order to be good, we'll seek friends and something to belong to because we fear loneliness, if there is nothing to gain, one is merely occupied with entertainment for personal pleasure.

a reply to: earthling42

But these personal qualifications have no place, in sacrifice there is no choice, sacrifice is not a choice.

You are disagreeing with my philosophy by changing the definition of the word I've clearly outlined? In fact, I've hardly changed the definition. Sacrifice is sometimes not a choice - but sometimes it is. Sacrifice is, quite simply, the giving up of something in return for something else - except in the case of a voluntary negative sacrifice, in which nothing is gained.

It is about seeing and doing, if you see someone that is in need, you'll help (i hope).

voluntary positive sacrifice - sacrifice time in order to help

There is no question of choice, there is question of act.

..and in acting, we sacrifice. This point makes me want to explore another idea, though - that of obligation.

Our brain is simply commercial, unless there is something to gain for us, we won't do a thing.

Altruism disproves that theory.

If I understand you correctly, you mean that sacrifice is not a choice in that it is obligatory? If that's the case, I'm willing to give it consideration - but not quite sold yet.

a reply to: scorpio84

Not necessarily a disagreement, in my opinion the definition of sacrifice does not do justice to the origin of that word.
As i mentioned in my first reply, 'what do we really have, which can be given'.
I know that the general notion is that we can possess animals for instance, and they have been sacrificed to god for a gain, or money which we give to the poor as a generous deed because that is what the mediator taught us, and we want to be good.
It is all so superficial, just like us, the goat or sheep is a living being, no less the child of divine creation than we human animals are.
Why should we give money to the poor while if we really go into the question of poverty, it is because of our own creation, how we shaped the world we live in.
This while we have all the means and the technology to feed and dress every human being, and provide them with shelter.
Why must there be such a gap between rich and poor, so is giving an alms a good deed, or is it just to feel good, buy off guilt.
Do we have time which can be sacrificed, what is time? if i use on hour to play with my kid so he is happy, is that considered as a sacrifice?
Or time that has to be put in in order to get something done or to achieve a result, is that considered as a sacrifice?
We live with the clock, it is a repetitive cycle, day after day, the clock dictates when we sleep, start to work, eat, is it a sacrifice when we get out of bed in order to work and make money to live on and to pay the bills.


It can be received as obligatory, in fact the philosophy of Emmanuel Levinas, "Jij die mij aan ziet" describes it as obligatory.


(Sadly i can't find an english translation but if you want i can translate it and post the translation in this thread.)

But to me, it has to do with responsibility, we as a human being are responsible, we are the world and the world is us.
We as human beings have created this world, this whole mess is our responsibility, it is our responsibility as a human being to change all that.
Not through efforts to change the world or to change others, but to bring about change in the core of our being.
That is the ultimate sacrifice, in this there is no place for 'me' and personal gain, life is dedicated to living in relation, care and diligence, being responsible.

a reply to: earthling42

I'll think about your post more tomorrow after I've had some sleep. Don't worry about translating it - I understand French (not perfectly, but what I don't understand, hopefully I can figure out from the Dutch subtitles).

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: scorpio84
A closer look at the idea of sacrifice

Shall we alter the parameters for a moment?
A slight shift towards Reality?
What would 'sacrifice' mean, if there were no 'free-will', no 'choice'?

But there is always choice.
Lots of people don't like having to make decisions that are critical.
They don't want to exercise their free will.
They don't want to sacrifice anything if they can avoid it.
They are nobodies.
Self-made individuals are continuously sacrificing their comfort zone for substance.

originally posted by: Anadandan

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: scorpio84
A closer look at the idea of sacrifice

Shall we alter the parameters for a moment?
A slight shift towards Reality?
What would 'sacrifice' mean, if there were no 'free-will', no 'choice'?

But there is always choice.

Sorry, but the mere gainsaying does not a refutation make! *__-
'Choice' DOES exist, in the imagination, the ego. Vanity.
'Feelings' are 'thoughts!
We 'feel' as if we make choices!
Unfortunately, in life, we are rarely taught how to identify 'feelings'.
So we are become insane.
To 'believe' it exists 'beyond' the imagination, is insanity, aka the (one and only) 'sin' of Pride!

Lots of people don't like having to make decisions that are critical.

I agree! *__-
But that does not refute that it is 'imaginary'.
'Liking' and 'disliking' are also 'thought/imagination, ego.
We do as we must, and 'like', or 'dislike' it in the vanity of the judgmental dualistic imagination.

They don't want to exercise their free will.

I am tempted to show you how 'free-will/choice' is not possible scientifically and philosophically, but I think that we'd be diverging from the topic. Which is why I just mentioned it as a 'what if', 'make believe'.
If you want to make a thread, I'd be happy to discuss.

They don't want to sacrifice anything if they can avoid it.

You are talking of 'psychological' conditions.
No one would sacrifice anything that gave them comfort if they had any choice!

They are nobodies.

I can't even respond to such a judgmental, hateful thing, other than to offer;

"We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are!"

Self-made individuals are continuously sacrificing their comfort zone for substance.

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity...
"Self made"!?
Does the darkness get any deeper than this?
Selfish and greedy and ungrateful people always 'hurt' when they have to lose/relinquish/sacrifice anything! (See; Republikkkan)
So if I were a selfish and greedy person, rather than call my niggardly ways what they are, I can live with myself if I call it... 'sacrifice', to 'justify' (psychological conditions). I'm a 'sacrificing' person, just LOOK at (fill in the blank...) that I have done!
It's all psycho-stuff, this 'choice/free-will' thing. All vanity.

Which puts 'sacrifice' in a bit of a different light, just like 'courage' and 'cowardice'!
All ego! All vanity.

a reply to: namelesss

Yes well it not difficult to see where you are coming from.
You seem to have a problem with ego and vanity. Neither of these is evil. I admit I possess both to a degree and I recognize and accept them for what they are. What I don't have is anger, hatred, bitterness, a craving for blood, loose morals, a deficit of values, ruthless ambition and so on.

As for choice of course we have choices. And you hardly enlighten me with your thoughts on feelings. The mind feels the 'outer' world via the senses which are extensions of the brain so of course it first 'feels' before it deduces anything.

You might want to come down to Earth . I know its tempting to float with the clouds but you are sacrificing your humanity when you stay up there too long. Or do you see yourself as a reincarnated Shakespeare?

originally posted by: Anadandan
a reply to: namelesss
Yes well it not difficult to see where you are coming from.
You seem to have a problem with ego and vanity. Neither of these is evil.

Yes, I have a problem with ill health and insanity.
Do you not?
I never called anything 'evil', thank you. (Strawman fallacy?)

I admit I possess both to a degree and I recognize and accept them for what they are. What I don't have is anger, hatred, bitterness, a craving for blood, loose morals, a deficit of values, ruthless ambition and so on.

So you say...
And if true, so what? That is simply who and what you are at the moment!
No 'choice' in that!
And you have certainly been angry at times, and hateful, etc...
You are either lying to me and/or yourself, or you are incredibly self-ignorant!
And, further, if you knew what ego is, you wouldn't claim to 'possess' one, you'd recognize that you ARE One!

As for choice of course we have choices.

Well! I certainly cannot argue with that well-thought-out logical refutation!

You might want to come down to Earth . I know its tempting to float with the clouds but you are sacrificing your humanity when you stay up there too long. Or do you see yourself as a reincarnated Shakespeare?

So, to translate your refutation of what I offered;
"No it isn't! Nyaaah, nyaaah, nyaaah! You're a stupid-head!"
Is that about it? *__-

a reply to: namelesss

You are so touchy. You come through loud and clear. I will be content to stay clear of your thoughts in future ...oops, I mean feelings.

originally posted by: Specimen
"The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few"...So the Sun God won't kill us.

Sun God cannot kill us as we live on its wife Gaia as the children they cherish (?).

a reply to: scorpio84

you wrote

disagree with Ayn Rand's definition of the term, then. I don't see it as necessarily giving up something you value for something you don't. That would be only one form of sacrifice - negative sacrifice.

and yet in your op....

Your alarm clock goes off and you get out of bed. By shutting off the alarm, you sacrifice the noise it makes for its silence

Is this not a negative sacrifice you are promoting? Help me out here...I think Ayn Rands definitions are rather more helpful and more "real world"