An Uncreated Universe

Whether or not one believes in deities, it seems that there is at least a common consensus that everything has an origin. In this post, I'd like to put it to the ATS community that there is no "first cause" and that the question of creation is superfluous. Do you agree? If it be the case that there was no creative event, how does/should that influence our perspective of our world, the universe, and reality?

a reply to: scorpio84

35th thread/cry for help today.
You having a crisis of faith or something?

a reply to: scorpio84

With respect I disagree.

Personally (And part of my own personal belief systems) there is a first cause to the universe and the evidence is all around us, the nature of the universe is a constant there is always an origin though sometimes we might not know what that origin is there is always something that happens that courses something else but the one thing I always fall back on and have said before on this site, maths is the answer.

Mathematics is the universal constant, the only thing that when we experience First Contact it will be with Maths and so the answer to if not what but if there was a inciting incident is a simple maths problem which is: 0 + 0 = 1

written another way - Absolutely nothing plus absolutely nothing equals everything that is, was or ever will be in this universe.

Whether you consider it being a god, a sentient universe there had to be something before, even if you consider the multiverse theory there was at one point a single or first universe and that must have had something to kick things off.

The question should be .... How was the first matter created?

Impossible to answer.. my puny mind says the answer is

too stupefying for any human mind to ever ever understand ..

there cant even be any serious theories to this question.

originally posted by: NowWhat
a reply to: scorpio84

35th thread/cry for help today.
You having a crisis of faith or something?

1). Where do you see a cry for help?

2). I'm agnostic, so I wouldn't say I'm having a crisis of faith or anything.

3). You are weak at trolling, try harder.

4). Do you have any actual thoughts on the subject?

a reply to: scorpio84

He has a point though.. what are all these threads that similarly themed
all about.. if your looking for the answer to creation your not going to find in here.

NO ONE knows anywhere.. it is faith in god that makes believers.. believers..

a reply to: Dwoodward85

With respect I disagree.

Respectfully noted.

Personally (And part of my own personal belief systems) there is a first cause to the universe and the evidence is all around us

I know there are finite things that have an origin all around us. Time for me to read your post further to see how you illustrate your point...

the nature of the universe is a constant there is always an origin though sometimes we might not know what that origin is there is always something that happens that courses something else but the one thing I always fall back on and have said before on this site, maths is the answer.

I would agree that as far as we have been able to observe, there is always something which causes something else. Falling back on math - the one discipline that may hold more water than science in a logical debate - nice one.

Mathematics is the universal constant, the only thing that when we experience First Contact it will be with Maths and so the answer to if not what but if there was a inciting incident is a simple maths problem which is: 0 + 0 = 1

I'm not sure what you mean here, so not sure how to reply. Are you saying that a first cause (whatever that entails) would bring about the equation 0+0=1?

Whether you consider it being a god, a sentient universe there had to be something before, even if you consider the multiverse theory there was at one point a single or first universe and that must have had something to kick things off.

I agree that it is the most logical way of thinking about things to say that there must be a beginning. What if, though - and this is the crux of the OP - we are simply wrong. When we think of beginnings and ends, we are thinking of time as linear and a matter of chronology. I put it to you that what we call time is simply a perception of motion and that everything has always existed in one form or another. Maybe the only way to solve the first cause problem is to drop the assumption of a first cause altogether.

a reply to: rigel4

What if matter always existed ... perhaps our known Universe was once a potential of it
But how it came to be ... to me hints it was an act of will ...

a reply to: rigel4

The question should be .... How was the first matter created?

That would be a question if you assume a caused universe. With this thread, I'm exploring the possibility that the universe is uncaused. This would then make the search for a "first cause" completely superfluous.

oo stupefying for any human mind to ever ever understand ..

Still, we may explore. We know that our Voyager spacecraft will never reach another intelligent civilization in our lifetimes - or perhaps in the lifetime of the human species (or perhaps ever) - yet we still set them off with that faint hope.

there cant even be any serious theories to this question.

Well, my "theory" - and I use this in the general and not scientific way - is that "energy can be neither created nor destroyed" means exactly that. Looking for the cause/creation of energy is approaching the problem from the wrong angle.

a reply to: scorpio84

I dont know whow to do quote things so I'll just answer -

My 0 + 0 = 1

When I use that I'm using it in the contexts of before the universe. Scientists still say that there was at one point no universe so this was my example of saying that you cant get everything from nothing, it is impossible. No matter how small there will always be something there and so to think that a void of nothing can multiply itself to create the universe just doesn't work for me.

Time -

When I use the term beginning I dont think of time I just use the word because there isn't another word in my head that I can use to describe the start of something. I understand and do believe that Time depends on where you are and how you measure things (Space time isn't the same as earth based time). So I wasn't meaning beginning as in a time frame just a point of reference (if that's the right word).

a reply to: rigel4

He has a point though.. what are all these threads that similarly themed
all about.. if your looking for the answer to creation your not going to find in here.

No, I'm not looking for the answer. I just enjoy traveling the path. I thought, though, it may be interesting to explore the question of creation from a side I do not see espoused often (haven't seen it on ATS yet, but I am new here, so I would not be surprised if it has been brought up before).

a reply to: Dwoodward85

I dont know whow to do quote things so I'll just answer -

When you click reply, you will notice that my text is above the reply box. Find the portion you wish to quote me on, highlight it, then click "copy." Coming back to the reply box you will see icons directly above it, starting with a white box on the left and ending with a YouTube icon on the right. Click the quote icon (third from the right) and paste the relevant text therein, click OK, and it's done.

this was my example of saying that you cant get everything from nothing, it is impossible. No matter how small there will always be something there and so to think that a void of nothing can multiply itself to create the universe just doesn't work for me.

It doesn't work for me either. However, as another poster on this thread pointed out, maybe we need to consider potential energy as well.

So I wasn't meaning beginning as in a time frame just a point of reference (if that's the right word).

I understand what you are saying. My point is that maybe there was no "beginning" - no "start" per se.

a reply to: scorpio84

What causes you to ask? *cough cough*

a reply to: scorpio84

Op could you check out what a quality thread is on ATS.
And at least show some effort towards achieving such
quality because

YOU'RE LOADING THE BOARDS UP WITH CRAP!

Please thank you!

edit on Rpm120115v55201500000043 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: cryptic0void
a reply to: scorpio84

What causes you to ask? *cough cough*

My curiosity. You sound sick - hope you get well soon.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: scorpio84

Op could you check out what a quality thread is on ATS.
And at least show some effort towards achieving such
quality because

YOU'RE LOADING THE BOARDS UP WITH CRAP!

Please thank you!

I'm sorry - what do you find not to your liking about this particular thread - or any other thread I have created? We seem to assume always that there "must be something before" - and this gets us to the problem of "first cause." Even if you were to say "God" as your answer, then the question becomes, "how did God come to be?" If you say God is eternal, then you never had "nothing" (unless you wish to say God is nothing, which would imply non-existence). If there was never a point in which there was nothing, the whole idea of creating something from nothing falls apart.

I will say something more direct to your "point," however. You have free will - for example, the free will to neither read my threads if they do not interest you nor to post nonsensical complaints on them. As far as I've seen, you have contributed very little to nothing in the way of intellectual discussion, and I'd appreciate if you would stop lowering the quality of my threads due to your inability to comprehend certain concepts.

Take care.

honestly, i think the question of "where did the universe come from" is superfluous. if that changes who you are as a person, you must not be very constant anyway. do the best you can by the people who matter to you. every second you spend agonizing over exactly what that means is a second you wont get back, so dont take too long.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
honestly, i think the question of "where did the universe come from" is superfluous. if that changes who you are as a person, you must not be very constant anyway. do the best you can by the people who matter to you. every second you spend agonizing over exactly what that means is a second you wont get back, so dont take too long.

It isn''t about changing someone as a person - it's about possibly changing how we view things - at least in the big picture.

a reply to: scorpio84

Your curiosity is first cause, then. Thanks for expressions of compassion.

originally posted by: scorpio84

originally posted by: TzarChasm

honestly, i think the question of "where did the universe come from" is superfluous. if that changes who you are as a person, you must not be very constant anyway. do the best you can by the people who matter to you. every second you spend agonizing over exactly what that means is a second you wont get back, so dont take too long.

It isn''t about changing someone as a person - it's about possibly changing how we view things - at least in the big picture.

in the big picture? the cosmic scale you mean? we dont mean anything. we are bacteria riding a sand grain in a tornado headed across a wasteland. nothing feel good about it. so make the most of the time you have, because you arent getting it back and as far as im aware, you dont get a second shot. and self satisfaction is all you get before the reaper does its thing. what gives you that one-shot self satisfaction is up to you.