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Ancient America’s Giants, Native Legends From Many Tribes

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posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 12:36 PM
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originally posted by: MadRob

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: MadRob
I've always wondered about this picture. Does anyone know the back story to it?



Yes. If you read reallllly carefully (no snark intended there, it's buried in the text and almost unnoticeable) it's a sculpt of what the femur of a 9 or 10 foot tall person might be. Problem is, nobody that tall could actually stand with a femur like that (it'd break off under the stress of the body.)
It's scaled up so why would it break?

It would break because the size of humans bones have been minimized through evolution. The bones are the minimum size needed to do the job. If you double the size of the body, the mass more than doubles, so that just scaling up the dimension of the bones wouldn't do.
A perfect example is me and a friend of mine, I'm on the high side of an average human, size wise, 5'-6" ish 150-160lb, now my buddy is 6'-3"to 6'-4", about 10% taller than me but he weighs 230lb and its not fat , so he weighs nearly 50% more than I do.
And just personally speaking, if I was an average hunter/gatherer/forager, roaming a sparsely populated landscape, and I came across a group of people the size of my friend, I would tell tales of giants.


They would need to be significantly more robust to support the weight.
You see those slight differences with bones in the remains of archaic humans, in fact the structure of the upper end of the femur is a diagnostic tool to determine what species of homonin it belongs, and what general ethnicity grouping the remains belong to, within certain criteria.




posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 12:42 PM
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originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: stonerwilliam
What if the atmosphere was different then so the earth could support giant creatures and plants

Just a thought


back then being what, 3000 years ago, yeah the world was completely different then, there wasn't any internet...


just one giant skeleton, anyone ?


Maybe longer 5000 to 10.000 years ago there are 8000 year old ruins in my country every where but the invading christians were quick to cover up many things in many countries they came to

In a book called conquista de mexico there is a sentence that says the bones of the giants were more numerious than the stars in the sky

I believe they were ground down and used for fertiliser just my 2 cents



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 12:44 PM
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originally posted by: MadRob

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: MadRob
I've always wondered about this picture. Does anyone know the back story to it?



Yes. If you read reallllly carefully (no snark intended there, it's buried in the text and almost unnoticeable) it's a sculpt of what the femur of a 9 or 10 foot tall person might be. Problem is, nobody that tall could actually stand with a femur like that (it'd break off under the stress of the body.)
It's scaled up so why would it break?


It's not as simple a matter as scale though. You're talking about increases in surface area as well as volume. Surface area is a squared increase and volume is a cubed increase. A little more simply put, to double an organisms height, its surface area quadruples and its volume would increase 8 fold. I'msth, this is the Inverse Squared Law.

You can't simply increase the skeletal structures scale without having a multitude of other changes. This is particularly true in bipedal creatures. Someone else here used Gigantopithecus as an example. Ignoring the fact that of the 3 known species of Gigantopitgecus and only G. Blacki attaining lengths of 3 meters, nobody seems to factor in the form of locomotion used by the organism in question. As the genus is not at all loosely related to our own genus and instead is of the same lineage as Orangutan, they were very likely a primarily quadrupedal ape much like Gorillas. This means they were not standing 10 feet tall and walking erect. Their morphology was well suited towards their environment which based on samples gleaned from their teeth, was very similar to Pandas as they both utilized bamboo as a primary source of nutrition.

Back to the math though... To give a little better context, to have a 24' tall human who was proportional to a 6' tall human weighing 200 lbs, your 24' tall friend would weigh 12,800 pounds yet his skeletal structure would only be able to support roughly 3200 lbs. and then there are a whole host of other physiological issues at play such as the lungs ability to provide enough O2 to all of your cells. Yes other organisms have attained massive stature both in the past and contemporaneously. Elephants are a good example of a modern large organism. One thing most people aren't aware of is that an elephants skin isn't so damned thick to protect it from predation, it's is to help contain the increased fluid volume and pressure as a result of their size.

And then there is the complete lack of real remains ever being found. All alleged "giants" have been found to be either hoaxes or based on misidentification and were later found to have been from a large animal. As Byrd succinctly points out, to have a viable breeding population of another hominid species or subspecies of our own genus, there would be a great deal of evidence in both the geologic and archaeological records but there is none aside from anecdotal presentations. And finally, as an Anthropologist, I can assure you there's no way in hell I or anyone Worked with in the past would be party to covering up data period, let alone something that would make my career and guarantee tenure, grants and aucraticr side gig as a lecturer. I'd love to make a discovery of this magnitude because it's the best form of job security I could imagine.



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 12:51 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

What about the Karankawa people? It's said that they averaged 6' - 7' in height.... and they lived on the Gulf Coast in what is now Texas. You're in Texas... you didn't know this?

edit on 1-12-2015 by Blarneystoner because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 12:57 PM
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a reply to: stonerwilliam

The atmosphere was no different than now 3 KA, 8 KA or 30 KA. So many people are under the impression that increased oxygen for example, was what allowed the dinosaurs to attain their size yes we now know that during the Triassic, O2 levels were quite low and may have exacerbated the Permian extinction event that made the extinction of the dinosaurs look about as tame as deer season in upstate NY. These low 02 levels also contributed to a very ow recovery(in geological terms). It took roughly 10illion years before the decimated biodiversity was able to recover and ecological niches began to be filled by new organisms. Even after this recovery period, 02 levels stabilized at between 10&15%. Today's atmospheric 02 is 21% in comparison. Slightly off topic but something to consider is that these depleted oxygen levels have been associated not just with increased volcanism which added copious amounts of CO2 to the atmosphere but also with increased temperatures.this means that if the planet continues to warm at the rate it is currently, this cycle is likely to continue. It won't happen in our lifetimes but global warming and lower atmospheric
oxygen go hand in hand.



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 02:21 PM
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So back to the original premise of the thread,
Native American legends of giants,
Here is a good Miwok story about Yayali, The Giant.
The Miwok were foothills people on the east side of the San Joaquin valley in central Cali.


3. YAYALI, THE GIANT

The Giant walked from below. He shouted as he journeyed up the mountain, shouted all of the way. He shouted to the people as he searched for them, shouted all around the hills.

Chipmunk answered him. Chipmunk told the people that someone was coming up the mountain shouting. "Perhaps he comes to tell us something," said Chipmunk. "I shall meet him." Chipmunk said to his wife, "I think your brother comes. I shall meet him, for I think he comes.

It was raining heavily when Chipmunk went to meet the newcomer. Chipmunk called to him, "Come, tell us who you are." The Giant answered Chipmunk by saying, "There is my meat." Chipmunk again answered the Giant's call, for he thought that his brother-in-law was coming.

Chipmunk at last realized that the newcomer was not his brother-in-law, and he said to himself, "I have found someone. I have met someone. He is not my brother-in-law." When Chipmunk saw the burden basket on the back of the Giant, he knew that he was not his brother-in-law. Chipmunk said to himself, "I do not think I will go anywhere now. I do not think I will be able to reach home." Just then the Giant approached him and asked him where he was going. Chipmunk replied, "My assembly house is over there." The Giant said, "Go ahead and I will go with you."

Upon arriving at the house, Chipmunk told the Giant to enter ahead of him, while he obtained wood and built a fire. The Giant insisted, however, that Chipmunk take the lead, saying that he was not a member of the family. "You are the owner of the house," said the, Giant. "You lead into your own house. I am not the owner of it." Chipmunk demurred and asked the Giant to go ahead. "Take the lead, or you will freeze," he said to the Giant. "You have been in the rain and have become wet. I will build a fire for you."

Chipmunk's insistence was of no avail. Again the Giant said, "You take the lead. You are the owner of the house." Then Chipmunk, to save further argument, led the way into the house. The

p. 293

Giant followed him. As they approached the door, the Giant reached into his basket, securing a stone. He threw the stone at Chipmunk, striking him on the back and killing him.

After he had killed Chipmunk, the Giant told Chipmunk's wife to help him bring in the meat. He then made himself at home and married Chipmunk's widow. He cooked Chipmunk, the owner of the house, whom he had killed. He told his new wife to eat of Chipmunk's flesh after he had cooked it. She said, "You eat it." The Giant insisted, "You eat it, you eat it."

After the Giant left the house, his wife (Chipmunk's widow) dug a hole in the ground. She placed in the hole her daughter by Chipmunk. She fed the little girl with deer meat.

The Giant returned at sundown. He had in his basket many people, whom he had killed. When he entered the house, he said to his wife, "We will not starve. We have plenty of meat." The woman told the Giant to eat the human flesh himself. She cooked deer meat for herself. She ate the deer meat. The Giant ate the people whom he had killed.

The Giant's wife cooked deer meat, with which she fed her daughter, whom she had hidden in the pit. She did not wish the Giant to see her daughter, for fear that he might eat her.

As the Giant departed the next morning, he said to his wife, "You have a better husband than you had before. He obtains more meat than your former husband, Chipmunk. I go now to get you more meat." He proceeded into the hills in search of more people. He told his wife before he left, that he would be back at sundown. As he departed he rolled a big boulder against the door, so that his wife might not escape. He rolled large boulders against both ends of the assembly house, and also one over the smoke hole at the top of the assembly house, where the smoke emerges. He closed the doors tightly with large boulders. After he had closed the doors, he went into the hills, to capture more victims. He returned with a load of people in his basket. He had captured many large, fat people for his wife. He rolled the boulders aside, and entered the house.

While he was away, his wife had cooked deer meat. The Giant wished to feed his wife upon fat people. He told her to eat the flesh of fat people. She said, "Yes,'' but instead she ate deer meat. The Giant thought that she ate the fat people, but instead she ate deer meat. He threw away some of the human flesh, because he could not eat it all. Again he obtained more fat people and cooked them. He

p. 294

told his wife to eat the flesh of the fat people. He said, "If you do not eat them, I will kill you." He said, "I think you have a very good husband. He always obtains plenty of meat, when he hunts. He never misses a person with his stone." Again he returned with a large load of victims, whom he cooked for his wife. He cooked, and he cooked, and he cooked. When it became dark he danced. He was so tall that his head projected through the smoke hole of the assembly house.

The Giant's wife gave birth to two boy babies. Both of them were little giants. She wished to kill them, but she feared that the Giant would avenge their deaths. She fed them and they grew. All the while she kept Chipmunk's daughter in the pit. She fed her continually with deer meet. By the Giant, she bore two little giants.

When the Giant departed for the day, she took her daughter from the pit, and held her in her lap, while the two little giants slept. She cried all day, when the Giant was away. She mourned for poor Chipmunk. She feared the Giant, but she could not escape, because the boulders, which the Giant put against the doors, were too heavy for her to push away. So each day she sat in the house and cried.

"You eat them. This is the meat which I cooked for you. You eat them. This is the best one. I selected it for you." The woman replied, "Yes." Then the Giant danced. he danced. He danced. His head went through the smoke hole, when he danced. When he felt happy he danced, his head going through the smoke hole.

He told his wife, "Care for my sons. Don't lose them, Care for my sons. Do not fear hunger, for I will always bring you plenty of meat. I am always sure to obtain meat when I hunt." He went into the hills again in the morning to capture more women and boys and men. He killed everybody, old people, young people, girls, and men. He killed so many that he filled his basket in a very short time. His wife, however, had plenty of deer meat which Chipmunk had obtained for her.

Every night, when the Giant came home, he danced. After he had danced, he cooked the meat for his wife, giving her old men and old women. He took for himself the young people. When he came home, he brought pine nuts with his victims. The old white-shelled pine nuts, that were worthless, he cracked and gave to his wife, "Eat these pine nuts. Here are plenty of pine nuts. You will not become hungry, if you stay with me. Thus he spoke to his wife, when he came home each night. He said to her, "Eat these pine nuts, for I

p. 295



continued



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 02:25 PM
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a reply to: punkinworks10
Yayali the Giant , continued;


perceive that you are hungry." His wife said, "Yes." However, she deceived him, for she did not eat the pine nuts. When he was not looking, she threw them away. She threw them away, when he was not looking. At the same time, she made believe that she ate the pine nuts. She ate only pine nuts which Chipmunk had obtained for her. She did not eat those which the Giant brought to her. Each time that the Giant went away, she ate from her own stock of pine nuts, which Chipmunk had collected for her.

The old women and the fat women that the Giant obtained, he brought to his wife; also those women who were pregnant. He said to his wife, "Eat. Eat well." His wife replied, "Yes, I am eating them." Yet all the time she deceived him.

Again he went into the hills to hunt people. He travelled all over the country in his search. When he returned, he brought a large load of people. Upon his arrival, he cooked the old women for his wife. Then he danced outside of the assembly house. Afterwards he danced inside. His wife did not eat the old women whom he cooked for her. She said, "Yes, I am eating," but she always deceived him. She worried every day, for fear that the Giant would kill her. That which he cooked for her she put into a hole, making believe, however, that she ate it. Instead, she ate deer meat. The Giant thought that she ate the persons whom he cooked for her.

The deer meat, which she cooked each day while the Giant was absent, she fed to her daughter in the pit. Each day, when she took her daughter from the pit, she cried. She felt sorry for the girl, because her father had been cooked in the fire. The thought of Chipmunk's sad end depressed her and made her cry all day, while the Giant was away. When the Giant returned in the evening, she hid her daughter in the pit. She herself lay over the pit, so that the, Giant would not find her daughter. She sat over the pit, so that the Giant would not take the girl. The two sons of the Giant lay in the corners of the house. The Giant changed them from corner to corner, when he came home. The boys never cried. They laughed all the time. That is all that they did.

Chipmunk's brothers below dreamed about him. One of them said, ''I think I will visit him. I will see how he fares. I dreamed that he was sick." So spoke one of Chipmunk's brothers after he dreamed about him. He told no one that he was leaving, but proceeded secretly into the mountains. He did not follow the regular trail, but went through the brush, passing through the high

p. 296

mountains. He spoke to no one of his proposed visit. He did not hasten, but travelled slowly toward his brother's home.

At last he arrived at Chipmunk's assembly-house, he said to his sister-in-law, "I am coming. Why are these large boulders against the door?" Then his sister-in-law answered him from within, saying, "Come in. The Giant killed your brother, He closes the door with those large boulders each time he goes out." Thus did his sister-in-law answer him, when he arrived at her house.

Then he rolled aside the boulders at each end of the house. His sister-in-law said to him after he entered, "The Giant killed your brother. Just see us. There are the Giant's two sons." Her brother-in-law then inquired about her daughter. "Where is my brother's girl?" he, said. The woman replied, "She is in this hole. I did not want the Giant to see her." Thus spoke his sister-in-law, when she answered him.

Chipmunk's brother asked his sister-in-law when the Giant would return. She said, "Sometimes he returns after sundown, sometimes before sundown. Today he went far and will not return until tomorrow morning."

Then her brother-in-law told her to crush some obsidian. He said, "You can go home. The Giant has many brothers. If they overtake you, and try to catch you, while you are on your way home, throw the crushed obsidian in their faces. I shall not go. I shall remain here."

She crushed obsidian and placed it on a deer hide. After she crushed it, her brother-in-law told her to start for home. He warned her especially not to lose the obsidian. "If they catch you," he said, "you can use it. Throw it in their eyes." He then proceeded to dig holes in different directions.

Following his advice she started. Meanwhile he dug holes, one, toward the south, one toward the east, one toward the north, and one toward the west, He dug them so that he might conceal himself and dodge from one to the other in case he were pursued. He made holes all around the assembly house, both inside and outside. After he had finished digging the holes, he did nothing. He rested and walked about outside of the assembly house.

He thought about the Giant and wondered when he would return. He went into the hills and cut a manzanita stick, sharpening one edge of it. He worked upon it all day, making it sharp. His sister-in-law

p. 297

told him to be careful with it. He asked her what the Giant did when he came home. She told him that the Giant always danced, and that every time he danced, his head projected through the smoke hole, his head projected through the smoke hole at the top of the house. Chipmunk's brother said, "All right." He finally finished sharpening the manzanita stick, making it very sharp.

Then he walked around, he walked around. While he watched the Giant came over the hill. He said to himself, "I think that is he coming now." He stood outside and watched the Giant. As the Giant approached the house, Chipmunk's brother stepped inside. The Giant saw him and said, "There is another victim. There is another victim." The Giant was glad that he had another person to kill. The Giant followed close behind him into the house.

Chipmunk's brother had killed the two young giants. He gouged out their eyes after he killed them and threw their eyes into the fire, putting one in each corner. Before his sister-in-law had left, he had asked her where the young giants kept their hearts. She had told him, "In the ankle," and that is where he hit them with the stick, when he killed them. After he had thrown their eyes into the fire, he went outside. The young giants were in each corner beside the fire. The two young giants were dead.

Chipmunk's brother now talked to the Giant. He asked him, "What do you do first, when you come home?" The Giant replied, "I dance. Just watch me dance."

Then Chipmunk's brother went into his holes and came forth in different places. The Giant tried to catch him and followed him about, but Chipmunk's brother was too quick for him and dodged into the holes. The Giant chased him around the assembly house. Every time that the Giant neared him, he jumped into a hole, appearing again in another part of the house.

He told the Giant, "You cannot catch me unless you dance. After you dance, I will let you catch me. I want to see you dance first."

Chipmunk's brother stayed outside, while the Giant danced. He shouted at the Giant and said, "Dance more. Jump higher through that smoke hole. I like to see you dance."

The Giant did as Chipmunk's brother told him. While he danced, Chipmunk's brother with his manzanita stick climbed on top of the assembly house. Suddenly he struck the Giant across the neck, decapitating him. The head rolled down close to the spring near the house

p. 298
continued,

The story didn't seem this long



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 02:29 PM
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originally posted by: Rapha

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Um...wasn't it common to express the importance of individuals by portraying them larger? I don't think that's to be taken literally.

Then paintings of the 'fat git' King Henry VIII should be so big that no other humans can be fitted into the painting.

However, there he is, exactly the same height as other people of all different classes.

You know, when the giants return though the portals when the veil collapses, its going to be so much fun shouting to the denialists; 'what giant, your seeing things'. Then the giant eats them alive. Munch, munch, munch.

Gee, I didn't know that the Egyptians (or what is that drawing you provided...Sumerian?) paid a lot of attention to Henry VIII. Ya learn something new every day.

Meanwhile, here's a crude depiction of the relative scale of bones compared to the mass of the critter.



Denialists? Is that code for Proof Requesters? Anti-pretendists? Man, today's school system has gotten a mite relaxed.



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 02:29 PM
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edit on 1-12-2015 by JohnnyCanuck because: it was a good post...but not so good it needed to be done twice.



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 05:36 PM
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a reply to: SLAYER69

Wonder if this has anything to do with the supposed fallen angels or aliens who mated with humans long ago? An interesting subject for sure!



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 05:39 PM
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originally posted by: Rapha

originally posted by: Marduk
just one giant skeleton, anyone ?

How can you ask that 'arrogant' question if your own avatar has any validity ?

I see you haven't met Marduk. Then let me tell you - that guy knows this stuff. I'd caution you to read some of the things he's written before trying to mock his knowledge of Mesopotamia in general and Sumer in specific with something you refer to as "Anunakki sculptures."

Harte



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 05:55 PM
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originally posted by: MadRob

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: MadRob
I've always wondered about this picture. Does anyone know the back story to it?



Yes. If you read reallllly carefully (no snark intended there, it's buried in the text and almost unnoticeable) it's a sculpt of what the femur of a 9 or 10 foot tall person might be. Problem is, nobody that tall could actually stand with a femur like that (it'd break off under the stress of the body.)
It's scaled up so why would it break?


As you double the size, the mass increases by 4x.

Think about the pictures you've seen of people who weigh 800 lbs (taking a 200 pound man, increasing his mass by 4 as you double his height.) How well does any human who weighs 800 lbs get around?

Now take a selfie stick (about the thickness of your radius)... and attach a 4 lb weight to it (about the weight of your hand scaled up 4 times).. and swing it around. How long will it take to break the selfie stick?

Tall people are far more fragile (bone-wise) than the rest of us.



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 06:02 PM
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originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: stonerwilliam

The atmosphere was no different than now 3 KA, 8 KA or 30 KA.
(etc - excellent explanation)



We should also add that the bones of those giant animals were MUCH different than bones of cows or whales or other quadrupeds. They are, in fact, VERY lightweight and similar to bird bones (though incredibly thick.)



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 06:04 PM
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originally posted by: Blarneystoner
a reply to: Byrd

What about the Karankawa people? It's said that they averaged 6' - 7' in height.... and they lived on the Gulf Coast in what is now Texas. You're in Texas... you didn't know this?


Karankawa were not that tall. The Spanish depict themselves as being taller than the Karankawa.



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 06:22 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Blarneystoner
a reply to: Byrd

What about the Karankawa people? It's said that they averaged 6' - 7' in height.... and they lived on the Gulf Coast in what is now Texas. You're in Texas... you didn't know this?


Karankawa were not that tall. The Spanish depict themselves as being taller than the Karankawa.

Maybe the Spaniards were just depicting themselves as more important.


Harte



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 06:29 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: stonerwilliam

The atmosphere was no different than now 3 KA, 8 KA or 30 KA.
(etc - excellent explanation)



We should also add that the bones of those giant animals were MUCH different than bones of cows or whales or other quadrupeds. They are, in fact, VERY lightweight and similar to bird bones (though incredibly thick.)


Excellent point. Not only was the skeletal structure and composition markedly different than that of modern mammals but the dispersal of air sacks throughout was a huge part in allowing such large creatures to maintain appropriate levels of oxygenation in their blood. If an organism of that size were to rely solely on 2 lungs it wouldn't work. Trying to say that humans should be able to have uninhibited levels of growth because dinosaurs reached such massive sizes isn't even apples and oranges. It's grapes and tractors.



posted on Dec, 1 2015 @ 07:25 PM
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originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: stonerwilliam

The atmosphere was no different than now 3 KA, 8 KA or 30 KA.
(etc - excellent explanation)



We should also add that the bones of those giant animals were MUCH different than bones of cows or whales or other quadrupeds. They are, in fact, VERY lightweight and similar to bird bones (though incredibly thick.)


Excellent point. Not only was the skeletal structure and composition markedly different than that of modern mammals but the dispersal of air sacks throughout was a huge part in allowing such large creatures to maintain appropriate levels of oxygenation in their blood. If an organism of that size were to rely solely on 2 lungs it wouldn't work. Trying to say that humans should be able to have uninhibited levels of growth because dinosaurs reached such massive sizes isn't even apples and oranges. It's grapes and tractors.


Oh, delightful!!! I see you're acquainted with sauropod physiology! They're fascinating, aren't they?



posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 03:39 AM
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originally posted by: Harte
I see you haven't met Marduk.


Finally, he killed Kingu and used his blood to create humans as servants of the gods. In recognition of his power, the other gods built a great temple to Marduk in the city of Babylon.


Read more: www.mythencyclopedia.com...

In other words, Marduk is a pure evil slave driver. Hitler / Stalin would be so proud of this alien negative entity.



posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 04:34 AM
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originally posted by: Rapha

originally posted by: Harte
I see you haven't met Marduk.


Finally, he killed Kingu and used his blood to create humans as servants of the gods. In recognition of his power, the other gods built a great temple to Marduk in the city of Babylon.


Read more: www.mythencyclopedia.com...

In other words, Marduk is a pure evil slave driver. Hitler / Stalin would be so proud of this alien negative entity.

As far as know, the poster I was talking about hasn't killed anyone.

But I've seen him violently slay ignorant ideas about many things on this forum and several others.

I'm simply letting you know that if you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

Harte



posted on Dec, 2 2015 @ 04:59 AM
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originally posted by: Rapha


In other words, Marduk is a pure evil slave driver. Hitler / Stalin would be so proud of this alien negative entity.


He killed a dragon which threatened existence, created the world and the sky from her remains and then created humanity from the blood of her husband
Yeah, what a complete monster, unlike all the other gods who sent a flood to wipe out humanity...

maybe you should stop reading Sitchin because apparently you are clueless about the entire culture

edit on 2-12-2015 by Marduk because: (no reason given)



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