Ancient underground city in Cappadocia will 'rewrite history'

originally posted by: staple
I think it is funny to see them say:
"unlike other cities which were mostly carved into rocks for temporary protection."
I would imagine that the time spent to carve out your house IN ROCK is something you take pride in or at least is something that you would use longer that "temporary protection".

Many of these cities were carved out of sandstone, which is relative easy to do with acids from fruit and grinding/chiseling/carving tools. In Paris, they built houses by digging out the basement levels to get stones and used those stones to build floors. The more floors you needed, the more basement levels you would have. Aberdeen and Edinburgh were built over the valleys between hills. On some streets you think you are at ground level. Move to a side street or into the basements of a house, and you realize that you are at least three levels up.

Why did they put so much Stond! and rubble in the cave?
Stone blocks, that would need to be cut to size!!!
did they hide some thing.
look at the film.

a reply to: Anaana

It's James Melaart illustration based upon mural fragments from Catal Hoyuk in the Great Goddess of Anatolia, here are some more;









a reply to: randyvs

And you passed the opportunity to say 'it's all about the eclipse'...i'm sort of disappointed.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

And you passed the opportunity to say 'it's all about the eclipse'...i'm sort of disappointed.

Well you know my redundance gets old even for myself sometimes.

Reading about these ancient sites always fascinates me. It seems to me we know so very little about the people of those times. We can only guess what a day in the life of one of these people would’ve been like. We don’t know how or what they thought, how they communicated, what drove/motivated them, and how they managed to build some of the structures they did with the tools we assume they had to work with. The study of the artifacts and structures of pre-history fall under the umbrella of a number of branches of science, and yet it’s strictly guesswork. It’s certainly not an exact science. Nonetheless, it still intrigues me when I read about these discoveries.

Megalithic structures and complex underground constructions amaze me the most. Why they built underground, I wouldn’t know. My first guess is maybe they thought it the perfect protection from the elements and predators. Perhaps they discovered a cave at one time, lived in it for awhile, and then just took it from there. Or maybe they got the idea from observing ants. Who knows? At any rate, I can’t get over how elaborate and extensive some of these underground cities were. It seems like it would take a monumental effort by a lot of people over a long period of time to carve out the chambers and tunnel systems; especially using primitive tools. I just can’t get a handle on it in my mind. It’s like, what’s wrong with this picture?

Another thing I wonder about is what they did for lighting deep within these underground structures. They must have strategically placed openings to the surface in order to supply oxygen. My guess is that these openings to the surface must have provided enough oxygen to sustain a fire for lighting and cooking, as well oxygen to breathe.

IDK - something about all this seems so mysterious and alien (not extraterrestrial) to me. It’s hard for me to come to terms with it, but I love reading about it.

Nice thread, Kantzveldt...

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: peter vlar

See here Peter, all this back and fourth discussion about a
friggen tobacco pipe is digusting to me. When certain players
obviously unwittingly, make secure pronouncements that artifacts
there will rewrite history.

You're so hung up the conversation I had about the tobacco like pipe and it's possible uses that you glossed over the crux of the article. The article doesn't state that a particular artifact, let alone the one I was discussing with Spider and Kantzceldt, was going to rewrite history as a whole. Which is the implication I believe you were striving for( see I do believe things brother!). What it states is that the find overall will be rewriting the history of the city of Cappadocia.

And what do we all together get? G-D
tobacco pipes?

No, you get an heretofore unknown underground city that appears as though it was a long term or perhaps permanent residential area as opposed to other underground cities and fortresses in the region that were geared towards temporary shelter. I'm not sure why the pipe is taking center stage for you.

Why are none of you even addressing the real issue
here? What are they hiding from the world? This is what makes me
so hostile?

I'm not sure I'm clear on this point. Are you saying that the pipe was put into play as a distraction piece and that there is something else being secreted away?

Obviously, the people in charge aren't giving even you
poor souls the full skinny. This allows you then to spout off in lieu
of the lack of evidence for a previous world. What are they hiding
that seeks to enable everything I call BS on. You can't possibly deny
the dishonesty my friend. And I don't mind saying, a lot is hinged
on your next reply.

As the work is ongoing and nothing has been punished as yet, I'm going to do the responsive thing and with old judgement until I am able to read the paper that will eventually be published. Is it not more responsible to withhold judgement until they've actually finished the excavations and published at least preliminary findings as opposed to jumping the gun prematurely?

Why does this dishonesty exist? Because they don't want to
rewrite the text? That's just more BS.

Who is being dishonest and on what are you basing this assessment?

Why don't you ask yourself these questions? To painful to admit
you're being openly lied to and not being given all the info?

How can anyone have all the info when excavations are ongoing and no data has been published? It almost seems as if you began with the premise that the archaeology is some heinous conspiracy and then worked your way backwards to fill in the blanks to fit your preconceived assertions.

It really makes me wanna rip someones esophagus out.
Not yours but someones.

You seem really tense and stressed lately bro. Take a day for ourself, get a massage and a mani/pedi. You'll feel so much better afterward!

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: peter vlar

So far, by your vacant to vanished response you seem
vanquished, void of voice and verbage. I didn't mean to be a
thread stopper.

Apologies Kantsveldt

Or could it just be that unlike Pinochio, I am I real live boy and have to attend to the real world occasionally. You know, go to physical therapy, get my daughter off the bus, help with homework, make dinner and put her to bed? I didn't realize I was beholden to a specific timeframe for replying!

Given that they have found at least one city like this, it gives credence to the idea of civilisations having gone 'into the Earth' like in all the myths around the planet.. I don't think there's a hollow Earth, rather it is honeycombed.. Life has thrived in the most extreme conditions on this planet, there could be thousands of different ecosystems in mile high caves. There could be flourescent flora and fauna very much like in the deep sea or like in that Avatar movie. If a highly advanced civilisation moved into there they could control their environment and survive undetected in these systems for thousands of years.

I think there were, are and have been intelligent conscious life living in cities like this for a long long time. I also think the Nazis made contact and started working with a few of these groups.

The more I discover and read I about the more I really think the history of this planet reads like a bad sci-fi/fantasy novel, or if you're corny like me you'll find it pretty cool.. Personal experience alone tells me we've been lied to about the most basic fundamentals of reality, of history, politics, science.. it all starts unravelling once you pull out a few of the foundation stones..

Sorry for having to be the guy that starts talking far out stuff but this is ATS after all.

originally posted by: netbound
Reading about these ancient sites always fascinates me. It seems to me we know so very little about the people of those times. We can only guess what a day in the life of one of these people would’ve been like. We don’t know how or what they thought, how they communicated, what drove/motivated them, and how they managed to build some of the structures they did with the tools we assume they had to work with. The study of the artifacts and structures of pre-history fall under the umbrella of a number of branches of science, and yet it’s strictly guesswork. It’s certainly not an exact science. Nonetheless, it still intrigues me when I read about these discoveries.

Megalithic structures and complex underground constructions amaze me the most. Why they built underground, I wouldn’t know. My first guess is maybe they thought it the perfect protection from the elements and predators. Perhaps they discovered a cave at one time, lived in it for awhile, and then just took it from there. Or maybe they got the idea from observing ants. Who knows? At any rate, I can’t get over how elaborate and extensive some of these underground cities were. It seems like it would take a monumental effort by a lot of people over a long period of time to carve out the chambers and tunnel systems; especially using primitive tools. I just can’t get a handle on it in my mind. It’s like, what’s wrong with this picture?

Another thing I wonder about is what they did for lighting deep within these underground structures. They must have strategically placed openings to the surface in order to supply oxygen. My guess is that these openings to the surface must have provided enough oxygen to sustain a fire for lighting and cooking, as well oxygen to breathe.

IDK - something about all this seems so mysterious and alien (not extraterrestrial) to me. It’s hard for me to come to terms with it, but I love reading about it.

Nice thread, Kantzveldt...

With every room built underground, they constructed four rectangular vents at each corner of the room. These went all the way up to the ground surface. The easiest way to make these would be to get wooden or metal poles, attach them together and gradually dig out the stone from bottom upwards. Maybe these would also have chimney covers to stop critters from getting in and to mark out who was where.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Anaana

It's James Melaart illustration based upon mural fragments from Catal Hoyuk in the Great Goddess of Anatolia...

That is such a shame, total fake then?

These are among the most important new "reconstructions" in The Goddess from Anatolia, yet in his 1963 excavation report on this shrine, Mellaart does not mention fragments of any such paintings. Instead, he merely says that the north wall at one time had been decorated with a hunting scene of which only a small part had survived, below a geometric pattern in black on white, resembling the kilim in the second shrine which is surrounded by an orange painted niche" (the "kilim" in the second shrine is the basketry-like painting from Shrine A.111, 8). His initial report devotes only one short paragraph to this shrine and its two small sequential surviving fragments; it illustrates the small hunting scene fragment. [26] But where are the remnants that formed the basis for six new extensive and finely detailed "reconstructions," including those shown above? If Mr. Mellaart and his team had laboriously cleaned and recorded these panoramic paintings, why would he not have mentioned them in this 1963 excavation report description?

www.marlamallett.com...

he three newly "reconstructed" paintings supposedly from this shrine that appear in The Goddess from Anatolia (two of them shown below) are indeed important to questions of fraudulence, since Level II buildings were described in the original excavation reports as having "no trace of any painting." Mellaart's defense, however, failed to resolve this problem. When we check the 1963 report we find that consecutive pages describe Shrine AII, 1 and the room directly beneath it. [16] If crew members had discovered painted fragments "hidden below final floor levels " of Shrine AII,1, this necessarily occurred that first year, not the following excavation season. By 1967 Mellaart was still claiming that no paintings had been found in Level II buildings, while the charts in his book also indicated no traces of paintings in those shrines. [17] Mr. Mellaart's smoke screen simply doesn't work. We are forced to decide which is more credible -- the 1963 and 1967 accounts or Mellaart's 1989-1991 version.

www.marlamallett.com...

I did say it was off kilter, I shouldn't be too surprised, but all the same, always disappointing to see the depths people will sink to to make easy money. I realise that his career hit the skids when he was kicked out of Turkey on suspicion of being involved in the trade of illegal antiquities, but whoring out Catal Hoyuk like that...ewww!

Not impressed!

a reply to: Anaana

It's certainly his personal interpretation somewhat loosely based upon the stylistic motifs of Catal Hoyuk he excavated, an artistic vision involving elaboration, it can be readily dismissed but through it he suggested what he never openly stated, that there was concern with the breeding of people at Catal Hotuk, the structuralism and some of the shrines seen in some of the illustrations owe more to the reed huts and cattle breeding cults of Southern Mesopotamia than Anatolia;





He was also of course familiar with the Genesis narrative were the breeding of the future children of Israel is in terms of association with the breeding of brown, white, and speckled sheep and cattle.



To make it blatantly obvious he includes a schematic drawing loosely based upon x and y chromosomes and DNA construct;



So that's my interpretation of what he presented as his own personal interpretation, the propagation of subversive and heretical ideas, delivered through a $270 coffee table book, terribly unethical of course the man was a rogue, but also amusing and generally correct.

Wondering if prolonged solar/plasma activity drove them underground.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
It's certainly his personal interpretation somewhat loosely based upon the stylistic motifs of Catal Hoyuk he excavated, an artistic vision involving elaboration, it can be readily dismissed but through it he suggested what he never openly stated, that there was concern with the breeding of people at Catal Hotuk, the structuralism and some of the shrines seen in some of the illustrations owe more to the reed huts and cattle breeding cults of Southern Mesopotamia than Anatolia;

No, I think you misunderstood, he totally made it up. The "reconstructions" are fabrication, there is no interpretation, just invention.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
He was also of course familiar with the Genesis narrative were the breeding of the future children of Israel is in terms of association with the breeding of brown, white, and speckled sheep and cattle.

He certainly does appear to have used the bible, and other mythology, in order to construct the images into kilim designs. That can be the only assumption, given that the designs are not found anywhere at Catal Hoyuk, other than his replication, in the designs, of the female figures he found at the site.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
So that's my interpretation of what he presented as his own personal interpretation, the propagation of subversive and heretical ideas, delivered through a $270 coffee table book, terribly unethical of course the man was a rogue, but also amusing and generally correct.

Heretical and subversive? Is that what they call fraud where you come from? He made it up to make money, which fair play to him if he needed the money and people are willing to pay, and like yourself, believe in unsubstantiated, unsupported theories, I know people do make a living in that way, Hancock for example, but don't go martyring them. He didn't subvert anything other than progress in uncovering an honest understanding of Catal Hoyuk. He was a very silly man.

The cover price would have had more to do with the limited print run. Price is generally according to volume. Volume is determined by demand. It'd have limited appeal given it was marketed solely to oriental rug specialists.

a reply to: Anaana

Mope, it wasn't about the money, he was asked to contribute to the publication and there was an enormous amount of valid research and expertise he could easily have contributed, he was the expert.

RK will not explain the reasons, and trust us we know all about it, behind Jimmy’s imaginative new ‘drawings

But we believed, and still do, to throw the baby out with the bath-water and overlook Mellaart’s outstanding career, his discoveries of Çatal Hüyük and Hacilar, is absurd, no matter how grave his lapse of professionalism with Anatolian kelim became.’

Rug Kazbah

The case for kilim motifs having their basis in the Neolithic period and Catal Hoyuk providing many examples is valid, Mellaart was totally capable of helping the authors make it, but he introduced another agenda which was more important to him

Weaving Museum

It wasn't that the basis of the theory -- that certain icons seen on Anatolian Kelim had their roots firmly planted in the archaeological record and history of Anatolia -- it was the rampant ignorant rush to apply this to kelim studies by those who had done no research or had no real understanding of this information.

Goddesses were seen everywhere and numerous later and far from historic or important kelim were sold for high prices to collectors who had high hopes they were buying early and valuable examples.

It did not take long for them to realize they had overpaid but worse they had put their faith behind an illusion that was disappearing right before their eyes.

The second was blaming James Mellaart.

While Mellaart's rug world related publications -- the first a brief two page or so mention in a catalog of mostly mediocre early 19th century kelim published by bertram frauenknecht and the second a far more extensive chapter in the "Goddess From Anatolia" with co-authors udo hirsch and Belkis Balpinar -- were faulty and packed full of fantasy references, Mellaart's earlier publications (for instance "Hacilar", "Catal Huyuk: a Neolithic Town in Anatolia", the original excavation reports in “Anatolian Studies”, and "The Neolithic of the Near East") contained unassailable and accurate information, which although not as sensational nevertheless provided ample proof the "Goddess" theory and the roots of Anatolian Kelim iconography lay firmly in pre-history.

But rugDUMB took the sensational Mellaart bait hook, line and sinker; and when the truth came out was absolutely unable to admit the mistakes so, as the old saying goes, the baby was thrown out with the bath-water

So there you have it, the illustrations were bait...the propagation of subversive and heretical ideas

Anatolian Kilim

Given the large number of niches carved in the wall I would hazard a guess this civilization was polytheist.
Interesting find and couldn't have come at a worse time for further exploration

a reply to: Kantzveldt

I think that he was the expert, but thirty years is a long time in archaeology and discovery had moved on a lot since he was involved in excavating the site at Catal Hoyuk. Perhaps you’re right, perhaps it wasn’t money that drove him, maybe it was purely ego. His first book was well received, and thoroughly peer reviewed, I have found it to be frequently cited in numerous books, hence why I was quite surprised by the whole fake murals, nothing more than embarrassed silence from his peers about that one. It has the air of a desperate act, a last bid for fortune or fame. I wonder whether he was trying to jump onto Marjita Gimbutas’s flawed but well-funded bandwagon, there was quite the market for anything goddess centred in the US, particularly around UCLA and Berkeley circles. His former pupil at the Institute of Archaeology, Ian Hodder, was rapidly eclipsing him. His motives seem to have been personal. Anyway after reading Wendy Matthews on the paint layers I was suitably inspired to request the 1967 book on inter library loan, so no, no need to throw the baby out with the bath water.

a reply to: Anaana

He wouldn't have done it if he was concerned with his reputation as that was sure to take a massive hit...

First off Mellaart’s had not one footnote, no bibliography and almost his entire text was was a ‘discussion’ of the new drawings and reconstructions, without hardly anything about Anatolian archaeology or discussion of genuine documented archaeological remains

James Mellaart

a reply to: Abysha

I usually look for religious clues. I see duality here listed frequently.
First things I see are the two black cats maybe panthers chained in hand plus around his waist. Obviously a he due to the large black ball sack haha and no breasts.
Oddly there is water and fish under the building.
The Chains also run down to the earth? under the water.

There is a large white shadowy figure over the man and panthers. Maybe even symbolizing some over self? Two birds facing on each side and I don't know the symbols they carry in their mouths unless it's s head.
Above what Looks like a bird head or three heads on a man bird.
Whose legs make up the head of the ghost like white shadow figure.

Maybe and it's a maybe
It's a representation of lower and higher natures either in harmony or showing the duality of the lower worlds and representation to the higher worlds "we" all "belong to" in that particular "religion" or philosophy.

Or it could be saying their is water under the city...or was then..
Or their was previous to their digging and they found focils....
Or
Water is simply an elemental part of their alchemy of symbols.
Earth and water above that having to do with reproduction and what not and some sort of bondage or chains of duality....or or or etc

Outside that on each side are also two different facing woman with...
Swords? And different colored heads....one white one black.
One with dog? Between her legs the other not.


On the right it looks to be...
Stairs. Are they carrying children?
Family dwellings?
AND
Do I see multiracial in the white and black faces???

Three Bulls on the right side stacked.
Two dots in the top of the head.
One large spiral on what appears a "yogis" belly...
Chokra wheel rotation?

Someone above ground walking with the birds...
Neat stuff!

It is a little strange they show a pyramid or peak structure of a building above the ground yet that might simply be artists fancy.



I've wondered in the past about underground civilizations around pyramids.
Why? Well due to their ease to defend with say arrows.
They can make for platforms that can be revolved around entirely on multiple levels.
Difficult to scale. Potentially walls that have disintegrated could of vanished much like the cap rocks sort of did. Obviously I have never heard much evidence of this being a possibility.
Still high ground is easier to defend then low ground...and to guard low ground such as underground cities and potentially hidden chambers high ground is very useful in that and in hiding lower ground.

Tunnels can be flooded or smoked out in war. Underground can be a death trap unless their are further exists farther away....

Which makes it even a neater idea because from the top of the pyramid scouts can determine the location of an enemy....pull them into the pyramid area...then send flank attacks from under ground locations away from the pyramid.
Surrounding an enemy. Where did those guys come from? Etc

Anyway I've never heard of that being found yet I thought it a brilliant idea.
Still all that depends upon technology of warfare from that time period and I believe believe we still don't know. Too many unsolved things even in basic building methods and lost technologies.