It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: spygeek
a reply to: Raggedyman
He has answered you raggedy, but I'll have a go..
There are lots of advantages to sexual reproduction (giggidy), but how it originated is, like the origin of life itself, currently unknown with absolute certainty. It most likely first occurred in a single celled eukaryote. It may have orginated from a mechanism to exchange genetic material between cells, (bacteria do this kind of thing). A second possibility is that one cell ate another but incorparated some of its DNA into its own insted of digesting it all.
Why two sexes evolved basically is due to the advantages of having sexual reproduction. Asexual reproduction, wherein the fission of cells into identical daughter cells occurs, is how organisms such as bacteria and yeast reproduce. The issue with asexual reproduction is that over time (essentially hundreds or thousands of generations), bad mutations will build up in the genetic code, causing developmental problems. The evolutionary way to overcome this is to mix genes with another organism through "sexual reproducton" to produce offspring.
Mating types, (i.e. male and female), arose because they are advantageous mechanisms of reproduction. There is only one known group of organims that is truly 100% asexual, tiny aquatic organisms called bdelliod rotifer.
You ask how and why sexual organs evolved? Because they are evolutionarily advantageous. Having two separate organisms combine dna to reproduce will over time develop distinctive 'mating types'.
"Sexes" didn't appear suddenly, like you to seem to be saying with your last paragraph. Mommy and daddy weren't distinct genders in the early stages.
Thank you for that long winded yet irrelevant post
Did I ask what is the benefits of two parents? Anywhere?
I know the advantages of two parents, again that's not and has never been the question
Did I ask are they advantageous? Anywhere?
Please show me?
I asked why, not because it was advantageous but what caused this directional change, what made nature take a course it could never understand, as if by magic? Almost as if was guided?
I also want to know why an organism would could develop a receiving organ and another a producing organ and how they could decode each other's information
I don't want to know the why of what happens after two parentage, I want to know the why it became necessary and why it changed before it could produce offspring
The answer lies in your simple statement "it's currently unknown"
So why have you and ghost added all that irrelevant fluff
Why have you said you answered my question when you then say it's currently unknown
That's dishonest
Is their a solid scientific theory, something not based on faith?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
This again doesn't answer the question. You are not even paying attention to all the assumptions that you are making. You are assuming that an organism went from lacking all the necessary parts to produce sperm to having those parts and at the same time another organism would need to evolve the necessary parts to produce eggs.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
You completely misread my question haha I am completely aware of all of that. The question I asked is where do new protein folds come from.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Proteins don't just fold into any shape. A relatively simple chain of amino acids folds into one specific shape out of the 10 to the 390th power possible shapes, and according to the estimate cited in the paper the maximum number of physical events in the universe is 10 to the the 150th power. Do you see the problem here?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
From EVOLUTIONARY BIOSCIENCE AS REGULATORY SYSTEMS BIOLOGY by Eric H. Davidson:
[Cut to save space for the rest of the post]
originally posted by: BOTAL
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb
Yes things evolve and adapt.
Indisputably.
But there must be some greater entity that started some basic lifeforms up.
originally posted by: BOTAL
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb
THE PROBLEM IS:
The series of changes in a row that build up to something that gives a reproductive advantage. When the first steps dont help until more are added
The first steps wouldn't stick so the chain of changes wouldnt be built.
originally posted by: BOTAL
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb
THE OTHER PROBLEM IS:
Anything you would consider a chicken or egg situation.
Flowers are bright to attract bees.
Bees learn to like bright because it signifies a pollen rich flower.
Both traits evolved at once??????????
Because whichever came first wouldnt "stick" without the other.
originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
Sadly you havnt the capacity to understand that you haven't satisfied others enquirers
originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147
Bit like the religious that accept and defend their position, though not adequately for you
I'm not making that assumption at all. To make that assumption would assume that these very complex mutations and organs occurred spontaneously. No where in evolution does this occur. Everything is an extremely gradual process that spans a population of a species over successive generations.
Just like we can see a transitional depiction with step by step evolution of the eye in living, modern organisms, we can also see the same transitional depiction with a step by step evolution of Sexual Reproduction from Asexual reproduction in living, modern organisms.
Here is the a biological tree that shows a proposed phylogenetic evolution of sexual reproduction in eukaryotic organisms.
Sexual reproduction doesn't require sexual organs identical to those found in humans (or other multicellular organisms in the animal kingdom). Just like the eye, the very earliest mutations of it are extremely primitive and not complex at all.
The quote you are responding to answers this question and details how new protein folds are formed.
I'm afraid I am not educated on the specifics enough to answer this question. Perhaps someone else here can
originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Ghost147
Do art and religion have evolutionary benefits? And if not, what is your explanation for their universal or near-universal prevalence among human communities?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Lets not misrepresent me. Maybe you did it to save space, but if you continue reading you will see that I said that would take a very long time. That is not an assumption I made there. The fact that it has to happen slowly doesn't help your case friend.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
I don't think we can see either of those things. I could go recreate that chart in two seconds. You aren't giving legitimate studies. You are giving renditions of what some Scientist claim happened without showing what information those renditions are based on they are worthless. I think you are assuming they have more information than they actually have.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
I never said they needed sexual organs identical to humans. Not just like the eye. I don't think you understand what is needed in order for a cell to become light sensitive. Many many things are needed. The fact that evolution doesn't happen rapidly is not good for you here. Natural selection does not work on a genetic level. It only works on what is expressed in the phenotype. So the process of getting a light sensitive cell is not as easy as you like to pretend it is. Again give me good sources and I won't have so much to say.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Drawings of a five year old just don't cut it .
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
You are still not understanding the question. Proteins are folded into three dimensional structures. This occurs after protein biosynthesis so protein biosynthesis cannot be the cause of new folds. From Wiki, "The events following biosynthesis include post-translational modification and PROTEIN FOLDING. " They are different processes.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Rather have honesty over bull#
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: BOTAL
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb
Flowers are bright to attract bees.
Bees learn to like bright because it signifies a pollen rich flower.
Both traits evolved at once??????????
Because whichever came first wouldnt "stick" without the other.
How is it you can see my question yet others can't
A bee wouldn't survive without the color of the flower,
the flower without the bee.
The two must have evolved together, that's beyond chance
It's like sexual organs, for some unknown and inexplainable reason nature decided that two parents are better than one so nature would provide codes, organs to develop in a singular moment by pure coincidence and random chance as if it was designed and Shazam male and female and offspring
Just a little to convenient for random chance to me
One without the other wouldn't stick logically
originally posted by: Ghost147
originally posted by: TheSorrow
a reply to: Ghost147
how is the genetic information that's added over time organized to eventually create a new species? I never grasped how nature is able to reorganize the info into something useful.
It's not so much that anything is organizing mutations as it is that if a mutation allows an organism a higher chance of surviving and reproducing, it gets passed down to it's offspring. The mechanism that allows for this is Natural selection.
I'll give my example of the moths from earlier, as it is a great example of natural selection.
Lets say we have a moth. It has a blotchy, spotted black color on it's white wings. It's environment is a forest, and within that forest are trees that have white and black bark. The moths rest on the trees, and their coloration prevents predators from spotting them easily.
The black spots vary in number from moth to moth, and some are so covered with these black spots that they tend to visually stick out when they are resting on the white trees. So, the population of the moths with more spots begins to dwindle.
That is Natural selection. And this incident im writing about has actually happened. Soon later, a factory was build next to the forest, and the pollution that the factory gave off covered the white trees with black soot.
Suddenly, the predators were then eating all the whiter moths, and the moths with more black on them began to raise in population.
So Natural selection weeds out disadvantageous mutations through environmental factors (in the moths case, the factor was predation). The more beneficial mutation prevails and has a chance of developing even further overtime, if that development would be an advantage in that environment.
This would be an example of Micro Evolution though, and you're wondering how we can progress far enough into another species (Macro evolution). Well, it's the same process, just accumulated over time. Here's another simplified form of looking at the similarities and differences between the two (microevolution and macroevolution)
If we were to take one species, and separate the population, placing the -now- two populations in different environments, mutations would occur to each of the populations over the generations that would allow those organisms to adapt to the different environments around them. This would be an example of Microevolution. Given enough time through successive generations, both of the populations (even though they were the same species to begin with) would accumulate different mutations and eventually their genes would drift so far from each other that the two populations would not be able to breed anymore. That’s one indicator that they’ve become a new species.
Let’s say we pretend a second in time, is equivalent to a mutation. As time goes on, more seconds are added. Just like in our first example when the two populations accumulated mutations. Eventually we gather so many seconds that we can define new term in time, 1 minute. Using our example from before, there were so many accumulated mutations that we could define an entirely new species. Just like a bunch of seconds can create a minute, a bunch of mutations can create a new species.
If we continue this process, more seconds are added and new minutes occur, eventually we have so many seconds that we can make a new definition, an hour. We could view the same thing in taxonomy, where an hour would be similar to a genus. We could go further to say that a day is a family, a week is an order, so on and so on.
They all came to be from the same process of accumulation, just viewed at a larger time scale.
originally posted by: TheSorrow
originally posted by: Ghost147
originally posted by: TheSorrow
a reply to: Ghost147
how is the genetic information that's added over time organized to eventually create a new species? I never grasped how nature is able to reorganize the info into something useful.
It's not so much that anything is organizing mutations as it is that if a mutation allows an organism a higher chance of surviving and reproducing, it gets passed down to it's offspring. The mechanism that allows for this is Natural selection.
I'll give my example of the moths from earlier, as it is a great example of natural selection.
Lets say we have a moth. It has a blotchy, spotted black color on it's white wings. It's environment is a forest, and within that forest are trees that have white and black bark. The moths rest on the trees, and their coloration prevents predators from spotting them easily.
The black spots vary in number from moth to moth, and some are so covered with these black spots that they tend to visually stick out when they are resting on the white trees. So, the population of the moths with more spots begins to dwindle.
That is Natural selection. And this incident im writing about has actually happened. Soon later, a factory was build next to the forest, and the pollution that the factory gave off covered the white trees with black soot.
Suddenly, the predators were then eating all the whiter moths, and the moths with more black on them began to raise in population.
So Natural selection weeds out disadvantageous mutations through environmental factors (in the moths case, the factor was predation). The more beneficial mutation prevails and has a chance of developing even further overtime, if that development would be an advantage in that environment.
This would be an example of Micro Evolution though, and you're wondering how we can progress far enough into another species (Macro evolution). Well, it's the same process, just accumulated over time. Here's another simplified form of looking at the similarities and differences between the two (microevolution and macroevolution)
If we were to take one species, and separate the population, placing the -now- two populations in different environments, mutations would occur to each of the populations over the generations that would allow those organisms to adapt to the different environments around them. This would be an example of Microevolution. Given enough time through successive generations, both of the populations (even though they were the same species to begin with) would accumulate different mutations and eventually their genes would drift so far from each other that the two populations would not be able to breed anymore. That’s one indicator that they’ve become a new species.
Let’s say we pretend a second in time, is equivalent to a mutation. As time goes on, more seconds are added. Just like in our first example when the two populations accumulated mutations. Eventually we gather so many seconds that we can define new term in time, 1 minute. Using our example from before, there were so many accumulated mutations that we could define an entirely new species. Just like a bunch of seconds can create a minute, a bunch of mutations can create a new species.
If we continue this process, more seconds are added and new minutes occur, eventually we have so many seconds that we can make a new definition, an hour. We could view the same thing in taxonomy, where an hour would be similar to a genus. We could go further to say that a day is a family, a week is an order, so on and so on.
They all came to be from the same process of accumulation, just viewed at a larger time scale.
This is a great response to why, but not how. I appreciate you taking the time. But there has to be a means for nature to take the info that is passed down and organize into something useful.
originally posted by: Ghost147
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Rather have honesty over bull#
I rather have civility over a presumptuous and pompous attitude.
Apparently that cannot be achieved by your side of the argument, as has been shown by a number of people in this thread that agree with you. What is the purpose of puffing up your chest in a debate and shouting "I am a winner, all you have said are lies".
Not only that, but why does everything have to be considered a lie? It's as if no one can simply be incorrect about something, it has to be 'bull#', 'lies', so on and so forth.
How about you act as a civil intellectual and we can continue without having to resort to harassment of the opposing position?
Then how exactly did flowering plants survive for a minimum of 40MA before bees split off from wasps?
Why MUST they have evolved simultaneously?