Native American Flood Account?

When I was too young to really care an awful lot, my father really got into studying native american culture for a while, and got pretty active in his pursuits compiling a lot of information and visiting various sites, etc. One of the things he mentioned was a Native American legend about a "Super Flood". Have any of you guys heard of this before? I had also heard that there was a computer model or something that had indicated that there were two hurricanes, one in the Gulf and one in the Atlantic that pretty much collided over the south eastern US and caused massive floods and general destruction. I wonder how accurate this account could be or if this is perhaps evidence of the deluvian floods from native american folklore?

My husband is a civil engineer and he says yes it could and someday will happen. They have to plan around a 100 year flood, and there is something called a 500 year flood that they dont bother planning around because it would not do a bit of good. They dont realy happen every 100/500 years, that is just what they call them . Given the right amount of rainfall spread over the country, especially if the ice caps were melting like they say is happening. Sure it could happen and probably already has.

I don't know if this might be any help, but yesterday I found some info about big tsunami on the coast of Oregon in 1700 -
Oregon Tsunami

"The last tsunami Oregon suffered occurred in 1700 when the populace of Oregon consisted of tribes," Roddey said.
He added that scientists have not been able to find clear records of the magnitude of damage and any death tolls as a result of the deadly wave besides village ruins, but the fragmented records they do have come from oral history passed down by those tribes and from records in Japan, where the country experienced the catastrophic tsunami hours later.

I only know of this one legend for sure and it came from the Cherokee in Western NC area apparently, but it was alot further back than 1700's, which is interesting in itslef as it had to be signifigant enough to be worth of tale for MANY moons. I wish I could find more info on it though. It is profoundly sad and a tragic loss from an anthropological stand point to watch the native american history pretty much vanish within a few generations. The only real knowlege of their history is from archaelogy and oral tradition, unfortunately the oral tradition sufered a meltdown when we wiped their culture out and alot of the history that should have been really delved into, is probably long lost.
There is no real way to estimate any time frame, my dad mentioned thousands of years ago, but I don't know how he had come to that conclusion. I wish I could, apparently it was a major event too far inland to be costal related. Maybe it just really rained like hell

I did further search and found this

Assistant Scientist Jeffrey Donnelly of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution presented the findings at the American Geophysical Union's fall meeting in San Francisco today. Donnelly and colleagues analyzed data from sediment cores, walrus fossils and pollen to precisely date the discharge from Glacial Lake Iroquois down the Hudson River Valley at 13,350 years ago. The flood waters broke through a spot of land where the Verazanno Narrows Bridge now stands to reach the North Atlantic.

Is it possible that somehow this event would be preserved in Indian oral memory?

Originally posted by jazzgul
Is it possible that somehow this event would be preserved in Indian oral memory?

I think it is a possibilty, if so it would do science some good to get out there and get this stuff before it is gone forever. Of course the further back you go the more mythological (for lack of a better word) in nature oral history seems to become, and without any geneological records it would be damned near impossible to really calculate any kind of time frame to the event unless the stories matched signifigant geological evidence or something. But oral history is more effective a record kepper than you might think it would be, stories like Gilgamesh were passed by oral tradition for a very long time apparently before they were recorded. I think alot of mythology is mistaken for being myth when in fact they may describe actual events as interpreted through various generations. While of course much is often lost or given to hyperbole, the story tellers and bards were given a definate signifigance in western cultures, I think not so much for entertainment, but perhaps they were historians of the time. It was common in early western cultures, I don't see that it would differ much in mesoamerican cultures. They share alot of cross culture similarities in their theologies which suggests not only common ancestry, but perhaps also suggests their emphasis on oral tradition as well.
The one you linked to sound's like a pretty localized event, but it would still be interesting to see if local tribes there passed it along nonetheless.

I found an interesting article about oral tradition and archelogical myths here
I think is worth to read.
I agree with you - twitchy - oral tradition has preserved huge amount of history of our planet, but I think major problem is how to find out, which parts are referring to true happenings. I believe the myth of food, so common to almost every culture in the world is reflecting the truth. I'm not sure yet if it refers to global flood -I think it is possible that many different floods occurred in our past, in different periods and places.

(sorry for bad grammar)

Some commonalities from mesoamerican Cultures I found, not quite what i was looking for but interesting commonalities to the western accounts of the Great Flood. The First is Mayan, the second Inca, and the third is Aztec.

www.crystalinks.com...
Mud men from the Popol Vuh
The Feathered Serpent - Quetzalcoatl - was disappointed with what he had created, so he sent a great flood to cleanse the earth of his mistake....

In the beginning, Lord Con Ticci Viracocha, prince and creator of all things, emerged from the void and created the earth and the heavens. Then he created animals and a race of giants (who lived in eternal darkness as he had neglected to create a source of light). These beings enraged the Lord, and he turned them into stone. Then he flooded the earth till all was under water, and all life extinguished. In a new start, he created the sun, moon, and stars. Now he created new birds and animals. Again he decided to form human beings: these he fashioned from stone.

Quetzalcoatl, the light one, and Tezcatlipoca, the dark one, looked down from their place in the sky and saw only water below. A gigantic goddess floated upon the waters, eating everything with her many mouths.

A few references to Native American Flood, would be interesting to read the original sources as they are the first translations and probably as accurate as printed accounts will ever get..

web.mountain.net...
Besides the Western world's familiar story of Noah, there are many separate cases of floods in mythology around the world. The Iroquois and Algonquian tribes of North America have tales of a large flood, while several Meso-American civilizations include flooding as one of the cataclysmic ways of ending the world

Here's an interesting one... Again fascinating to note the similarites to other cultures flood stories halfway around the world.

www.earthbow.com...
Myths and Legends of California and the Old Southwest
Compiled and Edited by Katharine Berry Judson, 1912
The Flood and the Theft of Fire
Along time ago there came a great rain. It lasted a long time and the water kept rising till all the valleys were submerged, and the Indian tribes fled to the high lands.
But the water rose, and though the Indians fled to the highest point, all were swept away and drowned-all but one man and one woman. They reached the very highest peak and were saved. These two Indians ate the fish from the waters around them.
Then the waters subsided. All the game was gone, and all the animals. But the children of these two Indians, when they died, became the spirits of deer and bear and insects, and so the animals and insects came back to the earth again.

One from the Chippewa Indians, which I think were indeginous to the area you metioned...

www.indians.org...
Nanabozho, fleeing before the angry waters, thought of his Indian children. He ran through their villages, shouting, "Run to the mountaintops! The Great Serpent is angry and is flooding the earth! Run! Run!"
The Indians caught up their children and found safety on the mountains. Nanabozho continued his flight along the base of the western hills and then up a high mountain beyond Lake Superior, far to the north. There he found many men and animals that had escaped from the flood that was already covering the valleys and plains and even the highest hills. Still the waters continued to rise. Soon all the mountains were under the flood, except the high one on which stood Nanabozho.
There he gathered together timber and made a raft. Upon it the men and women and animals with him placed themselves. Almost immediately the mountaintop disappeared from their view, and they floated along on the face of the waters. For many days they floated. At long last, the flood began to subside. Soon the people on the raft saw the trees on the tops of the mountains. Then they saw the mountains and hills, then the plains and the valleys.
When the water disappeared from the land, the people who survived learned that the Great Serpent was dead and that his companions had returned to the bottom of the lake of spirits. There they remain to this day. For fear of Nanabozho, they have never dared to come forth again.

The Cowichan tell a similar story of a great flood...

www.indians.org...
In ancient times, there were so many people in the land that they lived everywhere. Soon hunting became bad and food scarce, so that the people quarrelled over hunting territories....
In dreams their wise old men could see the future, and there came a time when they all had similar bad dreams that kept coming to them over and over again. The dreams warned of a great flood. This troubled the wise men who told each other about their dreams. They found that they all had dreamed that rain fell for such a long time, or that the river rose, causing a great flood so that all of the people were drowned. They were much afraid and called a council to hear their dreams and decide what should be done. One said that they should build a great raft by tying many canoes together. Some of the people agreed, but others laughed at the old men and their dreams....
Soon after the raft was ready, huge raindrops started falling, rivers overflowed, and the valleys were flooded. Although people climbed Mount Cowichan to avoid the great flood, it too was soon under water. But those who had believed the dreams took food to the raft and they and their families climbed into it as the waters rose. They lived on the raft many days and could see nothing but water. Even the mountain tops had disappeared beneath the flood. The people became much afraid when their canoes began to flood and they prayed for help. Nothing happened for a long time; then the rain stopped.
The waters began to go down after a time, and finally the raft was grounded on top of Mount Cowichan.

The similarities in Native/Mesoamerican accounts are astounding really.
I found a wealth of brief accounts here...
www.mythome.org...

EDIT:
www.nwcreation.net...
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...

Tsunami related accounts as well...
temp.water.usgs.gov...

[edit on 6-1-2005 by twitchy]

Wow! - an interesting read indeed

found another one -you can spent some hours there

flood myths

[edit on 6-1-2005 by jazzgul]

Well apparently the europeans and native americans have pretty much the same story of massive floods and of a raven when they had absolutely NO way of contacting each other.

Originally posted by humanoidcontent
Well apparently the europeans and native americans have pretty much the same story of massive floods and of a raven

when they had absolutely NO way of contacting each other.

Not surprising.. Floods are natural occurance and are common through-out the world.. they can also be devasting thus why their tale would live on for centuries in stories.

Same with fires and earthquakes...

Osiris

Originally posted by otlg27

Originally posted by humanoidcontent
Well apparently the europeans and native americans have pretty much the same story of massive floods and of a raven

when they had absolutely NO way of contacting each other.

Not surprising.. Floods are natural occurance and are common through-out the world.. they can also be devasting thus why their tale would live on for centuries in stories.

Same with fires and earthquakes...

Osiris

mm, but europe...america...great distance...BIG FLOOD!

hopi


An interesting read, especially the references to the 4 ages of mankind. Apparently the Hopi believe Mankind has been here before(here meaning staus of society and civilization).

I'm glad I found this thread again, check this link out...
www.talkorigins.org...

The video in my signature is on this subject. It discusses how a polar shift would cause great flooding, and they mention these native American prophecies.

maybe i'm crazy, but everytime i hear about the great deluge myths coming from around the same time periods all over the world i can't help but think that perhaps "water" has been mistranslated as "ice," or that ancient civilizations didn't have a word for "ice age" and just called it a flood.

reply to post by Sacreligion


Well, when the ice melted 12,000 years ago, it did raise the sea levels.

Ignatius Donnelly wrote a then famous book in the late 19th century titled "Atlantis: the Antediluvian World." In it, Donnelly recounts a flood legend of the Mandan Sioux Indians. It's one of the most western-world- traditions-corrleative from the Amerindian lore. According to this Indian legend, the world once was a "tortoise" which "sank," drowning all men except for one who saved himself in a boat, later sending out a dove to find out when the waters had receded. There is another version of the Mandan legend in which this "ark" was filled to the gunnels with soggy Mandans.

Hey Byrd, if you happen to see this thread, I'd like to know what you think of that link...
www.talkorigins.org...
You were the one that was telling me on another thread that the Native American flood myths were just an intermingling of Native American and Western Religions. I think that's farily ethnocentric and presumptuous.