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Russia VS. Turkey

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posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:18 PM
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originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: seagull
If Turkey isn't supported, in this unlikely event, what message does that send NATO members like Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, the Czech Republic? Not a good one, I dare say.


But they are not directly or indirectly supporting terrorist groups.

That’s the difference.

Turkey at the very least are guilty by inaction on there borders.

If they want to be in NATO then they should be obliged to keep a clean house.

I really don’t want to see millions of lives thrown away and possibly my country (and me!) nuked to save the arses of government that rife with corruption and indirectly responsible for the mess going in Syria. Certainly not worth my blood!

Being in a defence alliance should bring certain obligations and one should be not allowing your citziens to fund and support terrorists.



Many nations directly or indirectly support " terrorists " . There are no innocent parties here , Russia included .

I feel that you are singling out the Turks unfairly .

Not supporting Turkey says NATO has no power nor any will to stand up for it's member.

Consider this ; NATO has been founded primarly to defend against Soviet Russian Expansion . Regionally , hegemony of Russia in the Eastern Med was/is a big no no according to NATO Doctrine .

If Turks are left out in the cold and Russia takes over the Eastern Med without Turks being there to stop it ; well then NATO has lost what exactly at that point ? [ PURPOSE ]

Southern Eastern Flank of NATO is gone and Eastern Med is now controlled by Russia - Iran - China trio .

How is that a good outcome for a NATO ?

NATO powers have dark closets and it's the nature of the Security Business . You ask Turks to keep a clean house as if there no other NATO members with dirty hands .

I feel this is not fair either .

I do understand your desire to keep away from all this madness and if there was a way to achieve it like you suggest ; I would be all for it too .

Unfortunately not honouring our promises will only appease and invite bigger trouble to OUR shores .




posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:23 PM
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originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: seagull

Well thats the thing.

We need to boot Turkey ASAP from NATO.

If push comes to shove I hope we do that before we back them.



So you want to hand the southern eastern flank of Europe to Russia - China - Iran trio ?

what good will that do ?



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:29 PM
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originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: seagull

NATO is not going to get rid of Turkey. It is too great an asset in many ways. I shared this in another thread, perhaps it will help others here realize why they won't be kicked to the curb and Turkey knows it.


The Turkish Armed Forces collectively rank as the second largest standing military force in NATO, after the United States Armed Forces U.S. Armed Forces, with an estimated strength in 2015 of 639,551 military, civilian and paramilitary personnel.  Turkey is one of five NATO member states which are part of the nuclear sharing policy of the alliance, together with Belgium, Germany and weapons of mass destruction Germany, Italy, and the Netherlands and weapons of mass destruction Netherlands. A total of 90 B61 nuclear bombs are hosted at the Incirlik Air Base, 40 of which are allocated for use by the Turkish Air Force in case of a nuclear conflict, but their use requires the approval of NATO.


Source link:  Turkey Armed Forces

edit on 11 25 2015 by CynConcepts because: (no reason given)

edit on 11 25 2015 by CynConcepts because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:31 PM
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originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

I don’t think NATO was a mistake in principle.

The mistake was allowing certain disreputable country’s into it.

We should have put a higher bar to membership.


I see where you coming from now .



Really ?

Not long ago the Europeans were sending invitation to Turks to come help to build war ruined European economy .

Good enough to build the economy up and defend the continent with their lives ; Turks nevertheless are not good enough to be of an equal .




posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:36 PM
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a reply to: chewi

A war with Russia over the downing of two aircraft... Nope. Unlikely. If it happens again, then all bets are off. I'm guessing Pres. for Life, or whatever his title is...of Turkey got a phone call or three telling him to knock it off. He isn't nearly as powerful as he seems to deem himself...he may need that pointed out to him, but that doesn't require a war.

At least I hope that's the case.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:37 PM
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originally posted by: 23432
Turks nevertheless are not good enough to be of an equal .


That's correct. For nations to join the EU they need to make certain changes and meet certain civil standards. Turkey's accession to the EU is ongoing.

Turkey is a member of other European groups, like the Council of Europe and of course NATO.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:41 PM
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a reply to: CynConcepts

I don't think they will be either...

I do have to wonder, however, in the current political situation in Turkey, how dependable a member they actually are?



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:42 PM
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originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: crazyewok

In other words, NATO/SEATO.

I'd add a few others in there...India, Vietnam, the Philipeans, and South Korea. Italy, and South Africa, and one or two South American states. ...and just to ruffle a few feathers...Cuba.



South Korea, Italy yes and India and South Africa, possibly Brazil maybe ,but the others? Well they don’t have a promising track record of human rights and not causing trouble.

My idea would be to only allow in country’s that all share similar goals and values. Cuba and Vietnam have a long way to go yet.
[/quote

Oi, don't put us in there, South Africa....lol. We are pro- Russia! Brazil is also on brics.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:47 PM
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a reply to: 23432

oh come on your intelligent you have no doubt seen the radar tract ,the russian bomber had turned away and was shot over syria ,the russian plane was travelling at over 500 m.p.h not enough time to get the amount of warnings claimed.

someone gave the order to shoot it down anyway that's murder and thats why we should not back the turkish in this instance.
but our leaders want us to ,
we should just let russia and turkey sort there problems alone .why should my country back turkey in something we had no part in ?
edit on 25-11-2015 by stuthealien because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:49 PM
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a reply to: slapjacks

Keep in mind that the job that these pilots do is dangerous and being shot out of the sky is always a possibility. There have been numerous incidents on both sides regarding planes being shot down since the 1950s and no third world war has ever came from it happening.

Which is not to say that its a tragic event but a third world war??? I really don't see it happening over one plane and a helicopter.
edit on 25-11-2015 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:50 PM
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a reply to: paraphi

Lol. I am not sure on that, Putin would survive it, rest assured. Doubt it will go to war. American, German , UK support is not the strongest. Alot of support is going to Putin because he has a backbone as opposed to other leaders. I hate politics and definitely hope everything calms down. Russia still has brics support and the ugly truth is the Russians would consider nuclear way before other countries would.
Let's hope for the best, peaceful outcome



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:53 PM
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Personally I would like to see Turkey chucked out of NATO. But I guess it wont happen.

Anyway, there will be no war

Not everyone is a little schoolgirl (even if many act like they are)

tass.ru...



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 03:05 PM
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originally posted by: stuthealien
a reply to: 23432

oh come on your intelligent you have no doubt seen the radar tract ,the russian bomber had turned away and was shot over syria ,the russian plane was travelling at over 500 m.p.h not enough time to get the amount of warnings claimed.
I am only going to make couple of points ;

1 Turks had no idea it was a Russian plane when shot it down.
2 Turks told Russians to stop bombing innocent people.



someone gave the order to shoot it down anyway that's murder and thats why we should not back the turkish in this instance.
That pilot actually was killing innocent people and that is why it *Really was shot down .

If Russians were bombing ISIS then you might have been correct but Turkmen are NOT ISIS .
I can show you the pictures and videos of children & women who were killed by this Russian pilot's bombs if you want .
If innocent people are being killed , what would you do ? You would try to reason with the killer perhaps . Turks tried twice to reason with Russians and failed because Bear was busy stealing and eating the honey.

Pilot was murdering civilians in cold blood and he paid for it with his life .
You shouldn't back the Bear , you also stand to loose your honey .



but our leaders want us to ,
we should just let russia and turkey sort there problems alone .
It wouldn't be the first time where the Brits & Turks fight against the Russians .

why should my country back turkey in something we had no part in ?


Because we have signed on an agreement which exclusively stated that should there be a situation like this one , then we would help defend a member . We are conractually Obliged and honour is at stake here not just our energy security and national interests.
Failing to defend Turks is to admit weakness to a Russian bear who wants the honey .
Not that he needs the honey mind you .


edit on 25-11-2015 by 23432 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 03:23 PM
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First Russia is not going to attack Turkey. Russia vs Turkey alone would more that Russia could handle already propping up the rebels in the Ukraine, propping up Assad and with Crimea starting cause trouble. Plus having to keep forces in Georgia and Moldova.

Of course Turkey is not alone it is a member of NATO where an attack on is an attack on all. So if somebody attacks Turkey or the UK or Iceland it just like attacking every single member of NATO. So of course Russia would hit multiple NATO nations along its borders and make try for airbase else where like Scandinavia, Italy and the UK. Turkey would also be backed by it close friends Georgia and Azerbaijan. The rest of Central Asia is also pro Turkey but, would not want to throw in unless the US was backing Turkey. Otherwise the would stay neutral and hope Russia came weak enough that they could get rid of Russian dominance once and for all. The same tact Belarus would likely take. The Arab League would back Turkey as would Ukraine who just closed its airspace to Russia.

So war for Russia is not an option. It has almost no friends and lots of nations on its borders just waiting for the day they can get a little pay back. Not to mention, Russia needs the Turks. They have joint pipeline deals and the Turks are some the biggest buyers of Russian wheat, natural gas and oil. Russia is not a part of the sanctions on Russia so Russia has turned to the Turks big time to help stay afloat. To make matters worse Ukraine is stopping buying Russian gas and Saudi Arabia (anti Russia) has taken over from Russia as China's biggest oil supplier.

So Russia is in bad spot. They have war in Syria where at best they can help keep Assad in power longer but, have no chance at defeating the rebels or ISIS. ISIS takes down a Russian plane and Russia does not have the ability to do much more than France in retaliation. Russia thinks Turkey is bluffing when the warn Russia to stop messing with their air space and learns the Turks meant what they said. And Russia can not do much about it. Russia's economy is a mess. Ukraine is a mess. Trouble is brewing in Crimea, all the former Soviet republics are slipping away. Russia has lost in influence across the world. And the only way out of all this is if the West and Turkey are will deal with Russia over Syria and Ukraine. Putin has dug himself some holes, it will interesting to see if he can dig out or if he will be retired and somebody else steps in to fix things.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 03:46 PM
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originally posted by: MrSpad
Putin has dug himself some holes, it will interesting to see if he can dig out or if he will be retired and somebody else steps in to fix things.


No Putin will keep digging. He's in a hole of nationalism where the worse it gets, the better it gets.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 03:51 PM
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originally posted by: stuthealien
no point going abroad to fight isis we need to clear house here first from the radicals within
even the doctors are about to strike from the deal they have been offered, cameron
does not have hardly any support in this country at the moment
we know the election was a complete farce hardly a churchill is he .
even the services hate the cuts they where forced to endure.
well said



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 04:04 PM
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originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: MrSpad
Putin has dug himself some holes, it will interesting to see if he can dig out or if he will be retired and somebody else steps in to fix things.


No Putin will keep digging. He's in a hole of nationalism where the worse it gets, the better it gets.


He is not stupid, if he can not fix this he knows he will not be around. And considering a plane was bombed by ISIS and the Turks shot down a fighter he rhetoric has been pretty subdued considering the way he would go on about things before. Putin does not need a fight with ISIS or Turkey and he is going to have to find ways out of both of them. A agreement in Syria would do that, give up Assad for some piece of the Syrian defense pie. That is the best they can hope for at this point.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 04:18 PM
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a reply to: 23432

interesting angle you bring to the table a few questions
why did they not invite reporters in to see what this pilot had done .they would of gained a lot of support
so putin still has support while the turks have none.
we have all seen putin framed before,the hospitals the u.s claimed putin had bombed.
pictures are not really accurate as to when they occurred but still smoking destruction is a very powerful
thing to gather support .



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 07:04 PM
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a reply to: slapjacks

I predict a Russian cooked Turkey dinner if they keep this up.

2nd.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 07:45 PM
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a reply to: crazyewok

MMM YEA Turkey is directly in control of ISIS. Make no mistake President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has a leash for them.



Let’s just be clear: while it’s not precisely clear what combination of voter fraud, intimidation, and coercion ultimately led to Sunday’s sweeping ballot box victory for AKP in Turkey, there’s little question that the election results reflect the will of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan more than they reflect the will of the people. Indeed, quite a few observers have voiced concerns over the election outcome including the US. "We have both publicly and privately raised our concerns about freedom of the press, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly in Turkey," White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest said on Monday. For those unfamiliar with the backstory, Erdogan effectively started a civil war with the PKK in order to convince the public that only a dictator is capable of keeping the peace. Meanwhile, the PKK claims that Ankara has been using ISIS affiliates to stage what amount to false flag suicide bombings on Turkish citizens in order to frighten voters into relinquishing their support for the pro-Kurdish HDP. The turmoil led directly to a plunging lira and crackdowns on anyone that even looked like they might be against the government. For example, here are some images from attacks on HDP offices in the lead up to the elections:


www.zerohedge.com...

It was this jailed reporter who showed in court proof that Erdogan has control over ISIS. The NSA and others have done a good job at keeping that info offline. Erdogan wants his Caliphate at any cost but he must now deal with the Russian-French alliance so he shot down a Russian jet to get NATO involved and to try and drive a wedge between France and Russia. Did not work and no NATO nation will protect Turkey now, behind closed doors they know Turkey was stupid and since they are becoming very Islamic, short of using them they will not defend them against Russia for Russia wanting payback.

Russia has a much larger and more advanced Navy and Airforce. Manpower is about the same. Russia has a lot more armor and can move a lot of it in a hurry to Turkeys border if they need to. Knowing Putin the troops are probably massing as we speak. Don't forget, the Russian pilots navigator was just rescued last night.

Putin says no war with Turkey, however the Russian missile cruiser has been moved within range of Turkey, all bombers will have SU-30sm escorts and the S400 S.A.M. system is being moved to the Russian base in Syria to deal with any more Turkish hostile acting aircraft.

I personally hope Russia stomps a new mud hole into Turkeys wet dreams of a new Ottoman Empire.
edit on 25-11-2015 by Patriotsrevenge because: (no reason given)



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