Russia VS. Turkey

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

Two points...

Firstly, a country cannot leave the UN. It needs to be expelled. Even if the US refused to participate, the UNSC could pass binding resolutions in your absence.

Secondly, even if the US left the UN, Turkey invoking article 5 of the NATO Treaty would still leave you obligated, considering that NATO and the UN are separate entities.

Both valid and im aware of both, my point still stands though we shouldnt be a part of any of these .

NATO was a huge mistake

That still doesnt invalidate anything I said, they can still invoke said articles

no point going abroad to fight isis we need to clear house here first from the radicals within
even the doctors are about to strike from the deal they have been offered, cameron
does not have hardly any support in this country at the moment
we know the election was a complete farce hardly a churchill is he .
even the services hate the cuts they where forced to endure.

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

I don’t think NATO was a mistake in principle.

The mistake was allowing certain disreputable country’s into it.

We should have put a higher bar to membership.

originally posted by: stuthealien
no point going abroad to fight isis we need to clear house here first from the radicals within
even the doctors are about to strike from the deal they have been offered, cameron
does not have hardly any support in this country at the moment
we know the election was a complete farce hardly a churchill is he .
even the services hate the cuts they where forced to endure.

Thats the problem. If we go to war to fight Russia in Defence of Turkey we will be indirectly supporting ISIS.

To much of a mess to see one British, European or American drop of blood spilled.

a reply to: crazyewok

This I realize, however, should Russia attack? We are beholden to support, regardless of how we feel.

The supporting of terrorist organizations is inexcusable, and should come up in discussions at NATO meetings. Personally, I'd boot Turkey, but that's my opinion, made without full knowledge. None of us have the entire picture, and if anyone claims otherwise, I'd have to question their veracity.

Until such time as NATO kicks Turkey to the curb? It is what it is. ...and it sucks. To do otherwise is to risk the Treaties future.

Turkey. Saudi Arabia. I'm so not a fan of them. Were it me? I'd be reexamining our relations going forward. It's our job to make that happen. Politician answer ultimately to us. Or should. If we're too cowardly to make the effort? That's on us.

a reply to: seagull

Well thats the thing.

We need to boot Turkey ASAP from NATO.

If push comes to shove I hope we do that before we back them.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

I don’t think NATO was a mistake in principle.

The mistake was allowing certain disreputable country’s into it.

We should have put a higher bar to membership.

Fair point there, its much like having a membership and allowing all the riff raff in, at some point youre going to have to do something you dont want to do

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: seagull

Well thats the thing.

We need to boot Turkey ASAP from NATO.

If push comes to shove I hope we do that before we back them.

And Saudi Arabia

The fact that the UN appointed these guys as some sort of authority on Human Rights is testament to the ineffectiveness of this institution

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

NATO was a huge mistake

No, it wasn't.

When it was founded, way back in the day, it served a valid, and necessary, function. Without it? What are the odds that the Sovs would have come west at some point? Very good, I think.

Now? It's, to all intents and purposes, the military arm of the United Nations. Sort of... Certainly it's members are amongst the most powerful nations in the UN.

With the resurgence of the Russians, NATO once again, for good or for ill, has a function. Do the Russians desire to come west? Poland certainly has reason to believe they might. The Czechs do, as well. Will they? God alone knows. That's NATO's function, always has been. The Russians.

Do I think they will come west? God no. NATO is part of that reason.

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

I don’t think NATO was a mistake in principle.

The mistake was allowing certain disreputable country’s into it.

We should have put a higher bar to membership.

Fair point there, its much like having a membership and allowing all the riff raff in, at some point youre going to have to do something you dont want to do

Exactly.

Persoanly I would scrap NATO and form a new world alleiance with the USA,Canada,Australlia, New Zeland, Japan,Belgium,Frence, Poland,the baltic states, Ireland, Finland, Sweden,Norway,Denmark,Portugal , Germany and Spain.

Least the above are all mostly on the same page, share the same values and are not known in the last 60 years for causeing trouble.

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

You wouldn't get much of an argument from me...

As I said, not a fan.

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: seagull

Well thats the thing.

We need to boot Turkey ASAP from NATO.

If push comes to shove I hope we do that before we back them.

And Saudi Arabia

The fact that the UN appointed these guys as some sort of authority on Human Rights is testament to the ineffectiveness of this institution

Well luckily they are not in NATO (thank god).

But there position in the UN shows what a joke that organisation is.

a reply to: crazyewok

In other words, NATO/SEATO.

I'd add a few others in there...India, Vietnam, the Philipeans, and South Korea. Italy, and South Africa, and one or two South American states. ...and just to ruffle a few feathers...Cuba.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: crazyewok

In other words, NATO/SEATO.

I'd add a few others in there...India, Vietnam, the Philipeans, and South Korea. Italy, and South Africa, and one or two South American states. ...and just to ruffle a few feathers...Cuba.

South Korea, Italy yes and India and South Africa, possibly Brazil maybe ,but the others? Well they don’t have a promising track record of human rights and not causing trouble.

My idea would be to only allow in country’s that all share similar goals and values. Cuba and Vietnam have a long way to go yet.

a reply to: seagull

The problem is that the stability of the alliance also depends on the responsibility of the leaders involved not to take actions to split it.

Ergodan is egotistic and irresponsible and by his actions has strengthened Putin and weakened NATO.

After the ISIS attacks, there was a small chance of success and unity (Russia said for its military to work directly with France as an ally!). Ergodan's ego and ambition blew it.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

NATO was a huge mistake

No, it wasn't.

When it was founded, way back in the day, it served a valid, and necessary, function. Without it? What are the odds that the Sovs would have come west at some point? Very good, I think.

More to the point, Soviet supported Communists took over nascent democratic governments and turned them into totalitarian dictatorships allied with Stalin. At that time, Stalin and Communism had an expansionist ideology like IS does, but was much more powerful and threatening.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: seagull

Well thats the thing.

We need to boot Turkey ASAP from NATO.

And what happens after that? Unrestrained Islamism with a modern, powerful army and air force with an egotistical president-for-life who hates secularism and democracy, but loves the Ottoman empire and caliphate.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

Inside Turkey the best allies are secularist generals who want to stay part of NATO. Most have been purged already.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: stuthealien
no point going abroad to fight isis we need to clear house here first from the radicals within
even the doctors are about to strike from the deal they have been offered, cameron
does not have hardly any support in this country at the moment
we know the election was a complete farce hardly a churchill is he .
even the services hate the cuts they where forced to endure.

Thats the problem. If we go to war to fight Russia in Defence of Turkey we will be indirectly supporting ISIS.

To much of a mess to see one British, European or American drop of blood spilled.

If Russia attacked Turkey, we would go to war to defend Turkey from an agressor. If Russia wanted to be cool with Turkey, they could have acted less bluntly and more diplomatic, try to strike a deal or something, instead they repeatedly violated the turkish border with their transponders off (what's their deal anyway? they do stuff like this all the time, someone needed to kick Russia in the face for that) and thus provoking Turkey time and time again. So Turkey did nothing wrong by shooting down that plane, and if Russia decides to go to war BECAUSE OF THAT, it ought to be stopped by the full force of NATO.

The only thing that can stop us going to war is to expel Turkey for the act of war against Russia.

If a member state of nato backs terrorists and it is proven beyond doubt then would that not make them liable to be expelled by the rest of the community to save a nuclear holocaust.

We all forget the fact they need us all to survive to keep ythem in power and carry out their bidding.

New alliances and pact will be the order of the day very soon.

Look out for a summit meeting with all involved including Russia. Who will present evidence of Turkeys sponsoring of terrorists. Turkey will be hung out to dry and Syria. That's why we are emptying the countries.

In my opinion, not that it means much .

originally posted by: chewi
The only thing that can stop us going to war is to expel Turkey for the act of war against Russia.

Try not to exaggerate. No one was seeking Russia's expulsion for their various "acts of war" over the last few years.

Ukraine and Georgia to name but two.

Russian isn't going to war. No chance Putin would survive the body bags.