Putin will respond: Russians feel betrayed as Turkey stabs them in the back

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: crazyewok

You dont live in the US or Turkey yet dont mind commenting on them. So save the excuse on your refusal to comment on Russia or china.

i have #ing commented on russia and china if you bothered to read on other threads!

I have REPEATEDLY condemned China actions in the Pacific and russias actions in ukraine.

But the fact is all I can do is comment!

What you want me to do? Cry for War?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: ken10

So Turkey had no right to shoot down a plane violating its airspace?

Everyone has a right to be stupid, but you have to ask WHY would a country threaten a massive retaliation with a partner worth tens of billions of trades for a non issue?

a reply to: Mastronaut

Because Russian arrogance and the lack of countries that confront it allowed Russia to assume it could continually violate turkeys airspace at will. Imagine their surprise and resulting temper tantrum when someone told them no.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Mastronaut

Because Russian arrogance and the lack of countries that confront it allowed Russia to assume it could continually violate turkeys airspace at will. Imagine their surprise and resulting temper tantrum when someone told them no.

This makes no sense from any POV. Unless you have secret documents that can show Turkey knowing how to make up 50% of its energy overnight in november.
This is not a matter of saying "NO", this is an act of war from a NATO country hardly supported by any other western citizen but you and a few other russian-haters-at-all-cost.
It will cost Turkey so much in a moment where their economy is going south, its currency will plunge to oblivion before 2016 and will probably turn 90% of european countries against them joining the EU. To show Russia how big it's their D? Seriously???

a reply to: Mastronaut

Yes russia committed an act of war by violating turkish airspace with armed military aircraft. Russia was warned when they violated Turkish airspace in october. They did it again in November.

You trying to change the narrative to shift blame is the standard russian operating procedure and the world knows this. Its why russia is isolated and under sanctions.

Yet you guys keep falling for it....

a reply to: Xcathdra

No, you are trying to impose a narrative that is good only for propaganda on the lowest strata. First you need to absolutely believe the turkish and be sure their data don't show the internationally unrecognized 5 miles border. Russian obviously have other data and they did not match and Turkey violated Syrian airspace in their data.

So your opinion is that you believe that russian CAN'T say the truth and we have to accept your skewed narrative. You are ok to put at stake the entire economy of your country and destabilize the situation in Syria that could lead to a massive conflit, just to down an airplane of a country that had not a single reason to pose a threat inside turkish territory?
I don't need to believe russians, I just need to look at what Turkey presented to laugh at your opinion.

How can this not be preplanned?
Where are the benefits of showing how you protect your borders by downing a plane of a country that's not fighting you?
What is Turkey getting in compensation for self destroying its prospects for this winter?
It's a PR and economical disaster, they can't be as stupid as you want us to believe, there must be much more than flexing about borders.

a reply to: Mastronaut

Russia violated sovereign Turkish airspace and not the 5 mile excuse pro Russians are trying to push. The radar intercepts from turkey prove that. Its like the 19 different versions russia gave over MH17 all over again.

Glasnos system is not as accurate as gps.

Russia cant admit when they are wrong. Putins image is based on the false perception he is strong and can do no wrong.

Turkey warned russia about airspace violations. Russia violated it and had a plane shot down. In that sense it was pre-planned. They told the world their response. The question is why did russia ignore it and the warnings.

a reply to: Xcathdra

No the question is still why is Turkey suicidal, a move such as that could have been even favourable for Russia's support in the EU so if they wanted to "hurt it" more they should not have let Putin have an excuse to enforce a no fly zone and bomb turkmen to death.

This whole thing is not about Russia, it's about Turkey. This level of dumbness can't be random, so what's Erdogan's plan for the aftermath of this irresponsible action? Was there someone behind him or is the rest of NATO highly concerned?

How can you think this thing is just about a stupid border issue, do you really want to ignore every other news about ISIS-Turkey connection on oil, the PKK and the kurds, the pipelines?

There is no "why did Russia ignore the warning", you want to skew the narrative in this incident like it is normal to shoot down airplanes of close trade partners because they are arrogant. If that was true the USA would have 1 downed plane a day in every country. Russia couldn't welcome more an act like that because it's really impossibile to change people's perspective for a 17s flight.

It was the wrong move at the wrong time and for no benefit other than being accused of supporting ISIS by left and right.
The legal implications are far from resolved, the politcal and economical ones are going to escalate.

Turkey had the right to be the most moronic country in the world in the last 50 years, not sure why you are trying to ignore every other thing than the legal right for the 200th post. Maybe you get paid per post.

a reply to: Xcathdra

You can try to educate yourself on what's doing the governement in Turkey since a month (the same time you say it's Russia invading them)

- Oct 24 Reuters: Erdogan says Turkey won't let Kurds 'seize' northern Syria
- Oct 27 Reuters: Turkey is looking more and more like its troubled neighbors
- Nov 10 BBC: EU criticises Turkey over human rights and democracy
- Nov 20 Reuters: Turkey summons Russian envoy over bombing of Turkmens in Syria: PM
- Nov 26 Turkish journalists charged with spying over weapons report

You probably missed some of these news when forming an opinion about the subject.

originally posted by: Mastronaut
a reply to: Xcathdra

No the question is still why is Turkey suicidal, a move such as that could have been even favourable for Russia's support in the EU so if they wanted to "hurt it" more they should not have let Putin have an excuse to enforce a no fly zone and bomb turkmen to death.

This whole thing is not about Russia, it's about Turkey. This level of dumbness can't be random, so what's Erdogan's plan for the aftermath of this irresponsible action? Was there someone behind him or is the rest of NATO highly concerned?

How can you think this thing is just about a stupid border issue, do you really want to ignore every other news about ISIS-Turkey connection on oil, the PKK and the kurds, the pipelines?

There is no "why did Russia ignore the warning", you want to skew the narrative in this incident like it is normal to shoot down airplanes of close trade partners because they are arrogant. If that was true the USA would have 1 downed plane a day in every country. Russia couldn't welcome more an act like that because it's really impossibile to change people's perspective for a 17s flight.

It was the wrong move at the wrong time and for no benefit other than being accused of supporting ISIS by left and right.
The legal implications are far from resolved, the politcal and economical ones are going to escalate.

Turkey had the right to be the most moronic country in the world in the last 50 years, not sure why you are trying to ignore every other thing than the legal right for the 200th post. Maybe you get paid per post.

You act as if there is some grand plan here. Russia had a plane shot down and then continued violations of airspace over. That they had not shot a plane down by now is something of a miracle. Its is known war zone where continued violations of the Turkish borders have been warned against over and over.

Why would Russia continue to push that border? Either incompetence or they were trying to scare Turkey. The Turks did not back down. And now Russia has a problem because it has been leaning on the Turks for trade since they are not part of the EU/US sanctions. Turkey is very important to Russia's natural gas, Wheat, and oil sales. So the net result of this for Turkey will be pretty much nothing. Russia has no cards to play that do not do more harm to itself. So you will see Russia and Turkey make nice within a couple of weeks. The Russia will have learned not to push the Turks and the Turks will have learned what they suspected, Russia has burned so many bridges globally that they need Turkey. In particular they are getting beat out by OPEC all over the place including China and with Libya and Iran both getting ready to sell, keeping the Turks as a customer and those joint pipeline projects moving are vital to Russia.

originally posted by: Mastronaut
Unless you have secret documents that can show Turkey knowing how to make up 50% of its energy overnight in november.

Kurdish gas is enough for 50 years and President Barzani of Kurdistan has publicly stated his condemnation of Russia and also stated readiness of Kurds to supply the energy needs of Turks.

Your narrative is a long dead horse .

Your argument is day late and a dollar short too .

Putin is an ex KGB and Erdogan has % 50 of the popular vote .

Russians can't do anything with their military and commercial moves are ineffective too .

Turks aren't scared of standing up to a bully .

Let bully beware , Turks are not going to play victim .

a reply to: Mastronaut

The question is why did russia ignore warnings going back to october about violation turkish airspace. The question is why isnt russia attacki8ng isis.

Putin is throwing a temper tantrum because a country finally told him no.

a reply to: Xcathdra

The US didn't ignore the warning for sure ...

No US airstrikes in Syria since Russia deployed S-400 systems

Both the American and Turkish air forces halted their strikes on Syrian territory around the time Russia deployed S-400 air defense complexes at the Khmeimim airbase, from which it stages its own incursions against Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL).

A spokesperson of the Combined Joint Task Force Operation Inherent Resolve (CJTF-OIR) told Sputnik on Friday that the absence of anti-IS coalition airstrikes “has nothing to do with the S400 deployment” in Syria.

“The fluctuation or absence of strikes in Syria reflects the ebb and flow of battle,” the spokesperson said, adding that CJTF-OIR deliver airstrikes when and where it needs to, dedicating a lot of time to researching targets to ensure maximum effect and minimizing civilian casualties.

originally posted by: MrSpad

You act as if there is some grand plan here.

There is, unless you willfully ignore Erdogan's policies in the last 2 years.

Why would Russia continue to push that border? Either incompetence or they were trying to scare Turkey. The Turks did not back down. And now Russia has a problem because it has been leaning on the Turks for trade since they are not part of the EU/US sanctions. Turkey is very important to Russia's natural gas, Wheat, and oil sales. So the net result of this for Turkey will be pretty much nothing. Russia has no cards to play that do not do more harm to itself. So you will see Russia and Turkey make nice within a couple of weeks.

Exactly, Russia has no intentions to harm Turkey for multiple economic reasons. I'm pretty sure they were provoking/scaring but you conveniently avoided the reasons why. They want to keep the turks from supplying the anti-Assad regime and turn down profits for IS and other groups.

It does seem that for now Russia and turkey will not make nice within a week also since I just read about the sanctions.

Let's stop pretending this incident happened by chance. It's a baseless overreaction probably aimed at keeping high internal tensions and getting NATO backup for the irresponsibility. Both sides are wrong imo, but one side is at risk of being very wrong. There was no need to give Putin this visibility and skew the opinion in EU, so from a russian pov I can understand why they were provoking, on the other side I can't understand why they fell for the bait in such a controversial moment.

The Russia will have learned not to push the Turks and the Turks will have learned what they suspected, Russia has burned so many bridges globally that they need Turkey. In particular they are getting beat out by OPEC all over the place including China and with Libya and Iran both getting ready to sell, keeping the Turks as a customer and those joint pipeline projects moving are vital to Russia.

It's the western coalition that needs Turkey out of business with Russia, not Russia nor Turkey. Turkey will be the center for any pipeline towards Europe so it is and has been bribed, not coerced by Russia. On the other side who's not already on the market could easily put pressure in the for of coercion by promising Erdogan a bigger slice of the cake. So looking at who gains what, both sides had only to lose from such an incident and this opens up question about who could bribe/coerce the gov.

However I must say that despite the suspects, I am more inclined to see Erdogan doing this in his own interests even at the cost of his country wealth. Now he will push for changing the constitution and go for the real caliphate.

originally posted by: 23432
Kurdish gas is enough for 50 years and President Barzani of Kurdistan has publicly stated his condemnation of Russia and also stated readiness of Kurds to supply the energy needs of Turks.

Can you provide a quote from Barzani? Not that I doubt it but can't find multiple references.
Kurdish gas won't flow before 2017 so they better have stocked enough ISIS oil for quite a long before those alleged 50 years.

A gas purchasing agreement between TEC and Kurdistan is expected to be signed in December, sources familiar with the project said. Construction of the pipeline and gas processing plants, anticipated to cost billions of dollars, could start next year, with the first flow of gas targeted for early 2017.

Your narrative is a long dead horse .
Your argument is day late and a dollar short too .
Putin is an ex KGB and Erdogan has % 50 of the popular vote .
Russians can't do anything with their military and commercial moves are ineffective too .
Turks aren't scared of standing up to a bully .
Let bully beware , Turks are not going to play victim .

Your poetry won't make up for the lack of sources and the pro-Erdogan propaganda. Putin is not ex KGB, Turks are lead by a bully and indeed are not scared and are actually fighting him, 50% my ass. Turks, the people, will ofc be the victims they don't have to play it. It's turkish middlemen and the sons of the elite that will gain on their demise.

Turkey is close to crashing its economy over a non-issue for some nationalistic idiocy? I can't buy that.
If you feel so, have a good winter.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
The question is why did russia ignore warnings going back to october about violation turkish airspace. The question is why isnt russia attacki8ng isis.

Putin is throwing a temper tantrum because a country finally told him no.

That's not a even a question, it's obvious and answered multiple times. There are at least 2-3 reasons for Russia to play the provoker. "Stop smuggling weapons and stop going against Assad" are 2 quite obvious one. That's not an attack tho and responding with an attack would mean falling for the provocation and overreaching.

Also the question of attacking or not ISIS is indicative that you want to believe word for word your limited list of journals, because I'm pretty sure you could read multiple times on multiple western sources since the start, that Putin first of all is going to keep the syrian army up and second everyone fighting the regime would be labelled terrorist. Wheter you or me dislike it or not it doesn't matter, Putin never got in Syria to "fight ISIS only", it's only the propaganda that twisted the entire narrative.

Yes Putin can throw a temper tantrum and even get on his side thousands of people in the west that now view Turkey as the ISIS supplier THANKS to the stupidity shown by turkish government. I guess that after 2 years of sanctions Putin got a lot of no, and turkish "no" was more like "allah akhbar".

originally posted by: Mastronaut

Your poetry won't make up for the lack of sources and the pro-Erdogan propaganda. Putin is not ex KGB, Turks are lead by a bully and indeed are not scared and are actually fighting him, 50% my ass. Turks, the people, will ofc be the victims they don't have to play it. It's turkish middlemen and the sons of the elite that will gain on their demise.

Turkey is close to crashing its economy over a non-issue for some nationalistic idiocy? I can't buy that.
If you feel so, have a good winter.

It is not Erdogan propaganda , it is Turks playing straight . Russian bureocracy knows that Turks had every right to shoot the violating plane down .
That is the LAW .
Russians are not ignorant of LAW .

Putin is an ex KGB and I am surprised you don't seem to know this little fact .

Erdogan is the most popularly elected Leader around and I live in Istanbul , I know he has the support of half the population at the moment .

An external threat might see his popularity soar even higher.

Winter cold ain't gonna happen because Kurdish resources & Azeri resources ready to be used .

Russia is the bigger loser here , their economy is based on one commodity , oil .

In the long run if you think the Russians are going to be controlling Eastern Med well, you are wrong.

a reply to: Mastronaut

and yet out of all that the fact remains russia kept violating turkish airspace. They shouldnt do that..

I don't hear you complaining about Turkey continually violating Greek airspace. In fact I don't even hear you mentioning it. Could it be part of the anti-Russian propaganda?

"We won't mention that because Turkey are our friends!"

Turkey violates Greek airspace, yet again.

www.msnbc.com... seems russia is imposing sanctions among other actions against turkey for the shoot down so like other members said it seems russia is taking the econmic vs military route

ANKARA, Turkey — Russian President Vladimir Putin on Saturday called for sanctions against Turkey, following the downing this week by Turkey of a Russian warplane. The decree published on the Kremlin’s website Saturday came hours after Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan had voiced regret over the incident, saying his country was “truly saddened” by the event and wished it hadn’t occurred. The decree includes a ban on some goods and forbids extensions of labor contracts for Turks working in Russia. It doesn’t specify what goods are to be banned or give other details, but it also calls for ending chartered flights from Russia to Turkey and for Russian tourism companies to stop selling vacation packages that would include a stay in Turkey.

so not to many so far but i wonder what the fate of the join nuclear reactor program they were working on as well if this will lead to a cut off of Russian gas going to turkey and effect the pipeline that was planned to be built


www.bbc.com... bbc link on sanctions it seems there are up to 200,000 Turks living and working in russsia and russia is turkys second largest trading partner