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Does God exist?

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posted on Jun, 11 2003 @ 09:07 PM
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Answer:

It depends on how you define the word "God."

Man customarily defines "God" as "the Being perfect in wisdom, power and goodness whom people worship as creator and ruler of the universe."

Let's adjust that definition minutely.

No effect can exist without a cause.

Consequently, nothing can exist in the absence of creation.

This physical universe exists and, therefore, is the result of creation.

Source of that creation is obviously infinite in wisdom and power with regard to the physical universe, and reflects total truth of the physical universe, and in infinite wisdom is also infinite in what man would consider goodness. So, let's call source of that creation "God."

Therefore, if we define God as "source of creation of the physical universe, infinite in wisdom, power and goodness," we have a slightly different definition than what man customarily uses, but we have an accurate definition of what we can call God.

Accordingly, we can intelligently and truthfully say God exists.
--------------------------------

Source withheld until permission granted.

JHAustin




posted on Jun, 12 2003 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by JHAustin
Consequently, nothing can exist in the absence of creation.
JHAustin


But my question relates to what you've posted above-
If infact God exist and everything has to be created, then who or what created God? *Nothing exist without being created* if that's the case, and that is true, then it doesn't make much sense then that God was just *not* here, then *poof* He was created by nothing.
Can you explain this to me?
Magestica



posted on Jun, 12 2003 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by magestica

then it doesn't make much sense then that God was just *not* here, then *poof* He was created by nothing. Can you explain this to me?
Magestica


First, yes, God exist.


But we can't understand Who is God or What is God since we are JUST human with a human point of view.
Look at the ants. The ants don't know that they are living among us. Ants can't understand who and what are the humans. Then, I don't see why it's a problem if we don't understand Who is and What is God. We have just the possibility to know that God exist .It's not so bad after all. The ants don't have it.

At least, we are sure that God is the Good, the right side where we have to stand.



posted on Jun, 12 2003 @ 04:01 PM
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1. "There is no necessity"

2. "It is impossible"

3. "It is the private secret of the Creator"

1. "There is no necessity" This implies that there is no point to disclosing the secrets. This would only be possible if there was some immediate benefit to be gained by society. Otherwise, it would only be met with a reaction of "so what." This would be the reaction of people who believe that the Kabbalists deal with and make others deal with matters of no importance. This is why the Kabbalists took as students only those who were able to keep a secret and not disclose it unless absolutely necessary..

2. "It is impossible" This means a ban on the disclosure of the secrets because of the limitations of the language. This language (ours) is not capable of conveying subtle spiritual concepts. All of our attempts to explain with words are destined to fail and lead the student astray. Thus in order to be able to disclose these secrets, permission from above is necessary..

3. "It is the private secret of the Creator" The essence of this ban is in the fact that the secrets of the Kabbalah can be revealed only to those who are faithful to the Creator and who respect Him. This reason for concealing the Kabbalah's secrets is the most important one. Too many charlatans have used the Kabbalah in their own interests. They have made prophesies, given charms and have thus lured trusting people. The initial concealment of the Kabbalah was done precisely for this reason. True Kabbalists have therefore taken upon themselves to check their students very strictly. The very few people who were allowed to approach the Kabbalah in each generation were under the strictest of oaths. They were prohibited from disclosing even the slightest, most negligible detail which came under the three mentioned bans.



Im not a religious person, but due to the fact that I studied Torah and Rashi as a child, I was curious to see what was next.

Without permission of the teachers ofcource, i started reading it ( translated ). What drew me to it was the fact that a female was not allowed to read the holy scripture...that just pissed me off right there. Secondly, a person has to be of a certain age to study the Kabbalah. I believe its over 40.

Basically, you need to study with a kabbalist, its better explained and understood.

Its a process, like anything in life. Work at it and it enlightens certain people to a certain point.

Who is god, where is he/she/it ? Thats within yourself. You are a creator. Leave it at that.



posted on Jun, 12 2003 @ 04:10 PM
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Whatever you percieve to be God, it can exist, but perhaps only in your mind...



posted on Jun, 12 2003 @ 04:24 PM
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Letters - Pictograms - Ideograms - Numeric Values

Resh ---- Head ---- Thoughts, Principles - 200

Nun ----- Fish ----- Multitudes, Prosperity - 50

Resh ---- Head ---- Thoughts, Principles - 200

Please note, the picturegram of Resh, the Head, is used both for the body part and the position of a person in charge. We have this in English and other modern languages too.

The ideograms of Nun, the Fish, contains the idea that a fish's spawn cannot be counted. It stands for "innumberal" and for prosperity, which includes money, yet it is meant as a spiritual and mental prosperity.

So, a message containing the pictures and ideas of: "Thoughts, Principles - Multitudes, Prosperity - Thoughts, Priciples", could read in plain English:

"Be the Person-in-Charge of Thoughts and Principles about the mental, spiritual [the Education] and financial Prosperity of the Multitudes [the People] !"



posted on Jun, 12 2003 @ 04:39 PM
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Nothing is something. Hence the effect can have no cause.



posted on Jun, 12 2003 @ 04:40 PM
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if there was no god, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
so whether we made him or he made us, does not change the fact that god has a huge influence on the politics and condition of life, therefore, "god" exists as an observable phenomena.
p.s. god exists. it made us. it started as a zero, then became a one when it realized it was nothing.



posted on Jun, 12 2003 @ 05:00 PM
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I'd love to get into a debate but these things always go in circles. I don't have the patience or time right now anyway.

When it comes to Philosophical issues you have to realize that the only answer is no answer. If you figure that out and accept it, Philosophical debates turn into pure entertainment. But you can't win.

I don't think humans are smart enough to figure out everything. There are too many theories (such as String Theory) that can be supported by mathmatics that weaken the agruement for an ultimate creator.

Nobody will ever know.



[Edited on 12-6-2003 by tacitblue]



posted on Jun, 13 2003 @ 07:52 AM
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No effect can exist without a cause.

Consequently, nothing can exist in the absence of creation.

This physical universe exists and, therefore, is the result of creation.

Source of that creation is obviously infinite in wisdom and power with regard to the physical universe, and reflects total truth of the physical universe, and in infinite wisdom is also infinite in what man would consider goodness. So, let's call source of that creation "God."


All supposition. Cause and effect are even now being blurred by modern physics.... The old excuse that "we can't comprehend God" was just created to silence those who questioned the Church. Beginnings and Ends are manmade creations. Who's to say that the Universe hasn't always been or always will be? (and independent of any Creator). Maybe existence simply exists? Even now, evidence seems to point to a Universe that is cycling between expanding and collapsing, then expanding again, etc. Everything else in nature is a cycle...why should the universe be any different?

We are our own Gods. "God" is within us all, our energy, that animates these collections of cells. He is not an external conscious being acting as judge, jury, and executioner of man.



posted on Jun, 13 2003 @ 12:20 PM
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Beginnings and Ends are manmade creations. Who's to say that the Universe hasn't always been or always will be? (and independent of any Creator). Maybe existence simply exists? Even now, evidence seems to point to a Universe that is cycling between expanding and collapsing, then expanding again, etc. Everything else in nature is a cycle...why should the universe be any different?


Exactly. If there is no beginning then there would be no need or place for a creator. By simply having the idea that nothing is something an infinite Universe that never begins or ends could exist. It's like the concept of "0." Even "0" is something.

But what exactly the Universe is is another question all together...

Remember that time is something humans developed in an effort to give meaning and order to things... And humans like to give things a beginning and an end. This, to me, is not a good way to approach the Universe problem.

Just my .02... But really, I don't want to start a debate.





[Edited on 13-6-2003 by tacitblue]



posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 09:08 AM
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The "who created God" question is easy to answer. Nobody. Many humans seem to think that there was time and space before God created everything, but if he created everything then he also created time and space. If we consider that there is no time or space, nothing material exists or ages, so God is obviously not matter and therefore couldn't be created. He was just there.



posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 09:40 AM
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But what bothers me is the fact that we know everything was created by 'something' or 'someone' so why wouldn't this be the case with God himself? So what was here before God? Nothing? Then He just formed from that nothing? *I don't expect anyone to know this answer* Just your thoughts about it would be appreciated.
How can something/someone so strong and powerful come from complete nothingness?
Magestica



posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by tacitblue
The only answer is no answer

[Edited on 12-6-2003 by tacitblue]


How can there be a question without an answer? I am sure that there is an answer, we just have no way of finding it. One day, maybe, we might, when you consider all the questions we have answered over the ages. Many of these questions, incidentally, were dismissed by those who believed in God, who stated that God was the answer. They were later proven wrong...

The idea of God was originally born out of human ignorance, and I belive that it eventually will be made irrelevant by human intelligence and knowledge.



posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by tacitblue

Remember that time is something humans developed in an effort to give meaning and order to things... And humans like to give things a beginning and an end. This, to me, is not a good way to approach the Universe problem.



You have a very good point here. The human mind has difficulty in accpeting the concept of infinity, and therefore we think that everything must have a beginning and end. But if you think hard about it, you come to the conclusion that existence in itself has always existed, and that there was no creator in the beginning, as there was no beginning.



posted on Jun, 15 2003 @ 03:13 PM
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Ok, everybody, I just want to make one comment one religion: I know that it is such a sensitive subject. I have grown up without having any religion shoved into my brain. I don't really think that I God is real. I mean, there are so many different religions, the greeks, the romans, and all of the ones today. How come we are so sure that OUR god is true? How do we know that the bible wasn't written by some guy who was bored and said, hey, wouldn't it be fun to write a bible? No offense to any body, but It bothers me when people go to church every sunday and pray at the dinner table. Well, not bugs me exactly, but i wonder... what could have been done in all of those used sundays??? I think God is just someone to live for-someone to get the kids to behave for. Kinda like santa-but year round. It also slightly annoys me when people worry so much about the afterlife. Like, is it really heaven or hell? Where will I go? I figure, I am having a hard enough time getting through this life, how the hell do you have the energy to think about your next one? I guess I don't really think about God much. I think of him as a figurehead of being good, but I don't go out of my way to please Him.



posted on Jun, 16 2003 @ 12:31 AM
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Who says ''religion is shoved up your brain''?

And Greeks,Romans, are not ''Religions''!

Everyone in all of mankind has had some sort of worship........be it God or gods or idol worship......worshipping has always been around........in one form or another......

Why is it a waste of 'energy' to think of the after life???
And why did you use the word.quote//// how the hell do you have the energy to think about your next one?
Hell in your sentence if you beleive there is no after life???
It is your opinion to believe in whatever you wish......it is ''free will'' but to say that people who are religious and believe in a higher power of some form or rather....have been subjected to ''shoved into their brain''(please correct me if i'm wrong) as I dont beleive that people become religious of their upbringing......Yes it may help, but as an adult,you have been brought up with certain morals and shown what is good and what is bad........as an adult you 'yourself'' have the final choice to make up your mind of what is right with you......
And there are cults and sects or whatever you call them ,that have an influence in your life....but in the end it is ''our '' choice.....Free will.



posted on Jun, 16 2003 @ 01:27 AM
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Originally posted by Militiaman
The "who created God" question is easy to answer. Nobody. Many humans seem to think that there was time and space before God created everything, but if he created everything then he also created time and space. If we consider that there is no time or space, nothing material exists or ages, so God is obviously not matter and therefore couldn't be created.


But using this whole argument against your final sentence...


He was just there.


'he' - most certainly isn't an 'he'

'there' - but there wasn't any "There" for 'him' to be.


this leaves just the word 'was', or more appropriately, is. As in, To Be.
Which is best way to describe God that i can see. God is Being or Existence or quite possibly the Act of Creation, as opposed to a being or Creator.

And to assume that God is a being (rather than simply Being itself) who exists in a particular place (heaven) and judges humanity based on their actions makes me wonder who was actually made in whose image.

The love of God on the other hand is Real, for love is simply another word for connection and how can you not be connected to God when each of us are a Part, that makes up the Whole, which is God?



posted on Jun, 16 2003 @ 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by quango
God is Creation, as opposed to a being or Creator.


thats genious...If God IS creation than it would be true that we are all connected and a part of God because we are a result of God. And if a person such as Jesus to say he is the Son of God would in essence be true because he is the "son of creation".



posted on Jun, 16 2003 @ 01:46 AM
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quango

Sounds reasonable.

Of course God was created by Man in Man's image, it can't have been the other way around unless you take a fundamentalist Garden Of Eden view or enjoy other creation myths.

I have these questions:

If God is simply Being, and we are all Being and share a love of Being, then why is so much on this planet clearly derived from a love of Non-Being?

If either God or Being is conceived of as an entity, even as an abstract concept, and it is not a she or he, is it an It?

By most definitions this analysis would have you labelled an atheist. Are you?





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