Black Lives Matter Protesters Were Just Shot by White Supremacists

a reply to: Xtrozero

Sure, they're two different cultures, but your argument is that gang culture derives from certain characteristics of the Black Culture, but that the Hispanic Gangs arise for completely different reasons and motivations?

Fine, but you can't make any general statements about what causes Gang Culture then, because humans are humans.

BTW, just like you, I'll "go where the argument takes me."

Right, you don't know the numbers for Hispanics and Whites, but you do know the Black numbers. Why is that? Did you look it up for your discussion about BLM? Or is that what you've seen promoted in the media you attend to?

You don't have the right to tell any group of people what to do or how they should be doing it. You can say it, it's your opinion, but it's ONLY that, your opinion has no wider significance, since you make little effort to refine it with facts. (Sorry that was snippy.)

Loss of Black lives is a larger issue. BLM is doing what it can on it's terms. Do what you can on yours or do nothing or focus on those societal ills that trouble you. For example, I work on LGBT issues, hunger and the homeless, making sure poor kids have Christmas presents, etc. I'm sure you have your own charitable and social work that you do ... but don't damn others for doing what they can.

I guess we are done as well. I'm not arguing that you have no right to express your opinion and that should be obvious. Express your opinion all day long. But your opinion does not change the fact that BLM is doing what they can where they can, and it's more than a tiny bit hypocritical IN MY OPINION that the only argument made (not just by you but in general) is that BLM should be doing more on different fronts.

College kids irk you. Some of them irk me. That's not really the issue here, either.

/shrug Thanks for the discussion. Indeed, there is nowhere to go beyond "well it's my opinion and I have a right to it."

You sure do.

Best.

originally posted by: Boadicea
But we need to do more to address root problems. I want the wanton violence to stop. All of it.

Not sure if this can be fixed. It needs to start at the root level of the neighborhood. Some really bad areas have been successful in turning the corner when the people who live there take back their neighborhood, take back their family values, take back their community involvement, but then we see this is also nonexistent in so many other places too.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

Sure, they're two different cultures, but your argument is that gang culture derives from certain characteristics of the Black Culture, but that the Hispanic Gangs arise for completely different reasons and motivations?

Most likely same reason to make money, but not all reasons are the same. Many Hispanic gang members have very strong family ties, so there is a large amount of influence there, the gang live is part of the family life. With blacks I personally do not see the same thing, I do not think most blacks approve to have their kids in gangs, and so the kids make a choice of who is their family. There are more Blacks killed in Chicago by blacks than Latinos killed by Latinos in LA, and that is 840k blacks in Chicago and 5 mil plus of Latinos in LA.

I'm not going to sit here and say I know, all I can do is put forth some ideas as to why Latinos, Blacks and Whites can be so different in their ways of living when as all kind of live together.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Agreed, there are individual exceptions to every rule.

I see just as many strong Black families as Hispanic or White ones. I see broken families, dysfunctional families, etc. etc. in all racial groups and they all have similar results. It's not unique to Blacks or Black culture is my only point here. That's not saying that there ISN'T a problem in Black culture, because there is, but the problem is not WITH BLACK CULTURE as a whole, which is what I so often hear.

I appreciate your ideas, and I don't mean to make it sound like I'm telling you that you can't have your opinions, because that's the opposite of what I'm actually saying (or the contrapositive, I'm never quite sure). Also, I only see what I see, and I'm not infallible by any means, shape, form or fashion.

I try to argue from facts, and I guess makes me a bit stubborn at times.

There are problems a plenty in our world to go around for sure; I hope we're all doing SOMETHING to help out.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I'll say BLM is a mistake. First it shouts racism you take to the streets not about police officers shooting people but because police officers shot black people.. So when white or Hispanic die they don't care. Only time they protest is when a black person is shot. Second people participitating in BLM it's a lie police aren't targeting blacks. What happens is blacks commit more violent crime and therefore police have to deal with more violent situatuons. Violent situations will often less to someone being hurt.

Then BLM takes this myth and causes fear of the police in the black community. So when blacks have a violent situation who can they turn to simple no one and more people die. Or worse take things into their own hands by going after them. This causes further issues. If BLM want to do something get with the local police help make them make friends in the communities. Allow the people in these communities and the police work together to remove violent crime not promote it. If you aren't part of the solution your deffibatwly part of the problem.

a reply to: dragonridr

So ... you won't post your statistics. Okay. Then I'd say that your analysis posted earlier is stunted and not relevant to the matter at hand, at best.

Your posts are consumed in confirmation bias.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I am curious why there still isn't much info out about what happened. We have the names of 4 guys who were arrested and the news is saying one of them looks asian.

The police have until tomorrow (monday) to file charges, so hopefully more info comes out.

-FBB

originally posted by: FriedBabelBroccoli
a reply to: Gryphon66

I am curious why there still isn't much info out about what happened. We have the names of 4 guys who were arrested and the news is saying one of them looks asian.

The police have until tomorrow (monday) to file charges, so hopefully more info comes out.

-FBB

Boadicia (and others) have made the point that the four have a decent chance of making a "self-defense" argument; my issue with that is that they took guns with them to "livestream a protest" ... and that, given other elements of their backgrounds (and possible video statements of what they may or may not have intended to do) ... seems to make the claim for self-defense a bit more complicated.

It might come down to what the young men themselves said upon turning themselves in. We'll see.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: FriedBabelBroccoli
a reply to: Gryphon66

I am curious why there still isn't much info out about what happened. We have the names of 4 guys who were arrested and the news is saying one of them looks asian.

The police have until tomorrow (monday) to file charges, so hopefully more info comes out.

-FBB

Boadicia (and others) have made the point that the four have a decent chance of making a "self-defense" argument; my issue with that is that they took guns with them to "livestream a protest" ... and that, given other elements of their backgrounds (and possible video statements of what they may or may not have intended to do) ... seems to make the claim for self-defense a bit more complicated.

It might come down to what the young men themselves said upon turning themselves in. We'll see.

From what I gather from the reports is that the shooter called an officer that they knew and confessed and turned themselves in. The videos of Saiga (the guy with the gun) are not the people involved in the shooting.

I agree that their self defence case would depend on what they said as their state does not have a stand your ground law.

They have already been convicted in the court of public opinion so they might not even be able to be charged in the county.

-FBB

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: dragonridr

So ... you won't post your statistics. Okay. Then I'd say that your analysis posted earlier is stunted and not relevant to the matter at hand, at best.

Your posts are consumed in confirmation bias.

What are you questioning exactly. See we have this great thing called the Internet and if you want to know something you can go to what's called web pages. The only thing I said that is even slightly contravertial is that blacks commit violent crime more often. DOJ out out the stats not me. But it's not surprising though if two I think about it. Gangs thrive on violence they require it to even exist.here's a breakdown of the DOJ report.

www.amren.com...

a reply to: Gryphon66

I doubt self defense would work here. There would need to be one heck of a video to make that argument. If they had any possibility to flee the scene self defense would be unlikely.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: dragonridr

So ... you won't post your statistics. Okay. Then I'd say that your analysis posted earlier is stunted and not relevant to the matter at hand, at best.

Your posts are consumed in confirmation bias.

What are you questioning exactly. See we have this great thing called the Internet and if you want to know something you can go to what's called web pages. The only thing I said that is even slightly contravertial is that blacks commit violent crime more often. DOJ out out the stats not me. But it's not surprising though if two I think about it. Gangs thrive on violence they require it to even exist.here's a breakdown of the DOJ report.

www.amren.com...

Really? Is THAT what the internet is? LOL ... son-of-a-gun!

You made claims and didn't back them up. Now you're providing a biased right-wing garbage site which tells me everything I need to know about your argument. Do you think your "truth regarding race relations" site might have possibly cherry-picked and then misinterpreted the data to support their agenda? Naw, that don't happen on the internet, now does it?)

(Please.)

Everything you claimed in your post was "controversial" ... though perhaps in light of your routine news sources (like the right-wing propaganda site you linked), and gesturing at such a stilted, opinion-based INTERPRETATION of DOJ statistics and claiming "well, there you go" is merely pedantic.

You're just repeating nonsense like "Blacks commit more crimes" and "police aren't targeting Black people" because those empty claims fit your beliefs.

Neither the wingnut blog you provide in your link, nor any other data anywhere, PROVE those gross, biased, over-used contentions. (One of the authors of your site is Jared Taylor who has just happened to publish a book called White Identity: Racial Consciousness in the 21st Century.. No obvious bias there, huh?

About Jared Taylor - SPLC

In his personal bearing and tone, Jared Taylor projects himself as a courtly presenter of ideas that most would describe as crudely white supremacist — a kind of modern-day version of the refined but racist colonialist of old. He is the founder of the New Century Foundation and edits its American Renaissance magazine, which, despite its pseudo-academic polish, regularly publishes proponents of eugenics and blatant anti-black and anti-Latino racists. Taylor also hosts a conference every other year where racist intellectuals rub shoulders with Klansmen, neo-Nazis and other white supremacists.

... not to mention:

In His Own Words
"Blacks and whites are different. When blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western civilization — any kind of civilization — disappears."
— American Renaissance, 2005

Further, your contention that "Blacks commit more crime" is put to the lie by the first line in the table on your site:

For "Total violent crimes" in 2012, Blacks are shown as having committed 22.4 percent of the total and Whites committed 42.9 percent.

This is not "most crimes" as 22.4 certainly does not equal 51 and nor is it higher than 42.9. Also, notably, the data pulled out by your site says nothing about incidence of cop-on-Black violence which was the entire basis of your first claim.

What you're posting is merely "your opinion" (or rather, Jared Taylor's) which is perfectly fine ... just not factual.

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Gryphon66

I doubt self defense would work here. There would need to be one heck of a video to make that argument. If they had any possibility to flee the scene self defense would be unlikely.

Hopefully, the Minneapolis Police Department has more forensic resources at their disposal than a Youtube video.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I still don't entirely understand... but I think you confirmed for me what I was thinking. So, for example, if one Black gangbanger commits 100 crimes, those 100 crimes are going to be statistically represented as 100 Black people commiting crimes, which totally and completely skews the statistical perception.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics -- Mark Twain

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Gryphon66

I doubt self defense would work here. There would need to be one heck of a video to make that argument. If they had any possibility to flee the scene self defense would be unlikely.

If??? In fact, they did flee the scene (per witnessess), after being physically assaulted (per witnesses), and were chased down the street (per witnesses)... that is exactly their self-defense.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

Hopefully, the Minneapolis Police Department has more forensic resources at their disposal than a Youtube video.

They just might.

I can't pin this down... but apparently some people think the Scarsella guy who confessed to his cop friend was the friend riding with SaigaMarine in the youtube video all over the place. I don't know if that's true or not, but it might explain why SaigaMarine was found and arrested so quickly.

If it is true, could they be charged with inciting a riot or something like that based on their previous activity, such as the video threats posted? Harassment? Stalking? Anything? I know this is all hypothetical at this point...

I'm just thinking the MPD may have evidence/information we don't have yet... they may have been able to connect internet activity or something not publicly known.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Gryphon66

I still don't entirely understand... but I think you confirmed for me what I was thinking. So, for example, if one Black gangbanger commits 100 crimes, those 100 crimes are going to be statistically represented as 100 Black people commiting crimes, which totally and completely skews the statistical perception.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics -- Mark Twain

That's another rather extreme way to look at it, but that is part of the problem using a per capita estimate, yes.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

Makes perfect sense to me, the "best way to lie is to use statistics":

An argument goes that that Blacks commit say 40% of total violent crimes committed and Whites commit 55%.

(I'm making these numbers up for example only.)

As portions of the total US population, Whites make up about 70% and Blacks about 13%.

Then, the observation is made that per capita (in other words, in comparison with the total population) Blacks the 40% of the crimes committed by Blacks is far greater than that of Whites COMPARED WITH POPULATION.

So ... 0.40/0.13 = 3.07 (Black crime rate over Black population) as compared with 0.55/0.70 (White crime rate over White Population) = 0.785.

So, here the Black Crime Rate per Capita compared with White CR / Cap is 4 times larger.

... and this is then used to claim that Blacks are 4 times more likely to commit crimes as Whites.

EXCEPT (my argument)

Using the total populations (especially since there is such a wide disparity there are 5-7 times as many Whites as Blacks) is particularly meaningless BECAUSE ... neither all members of the Black Population or all members of the White population commit crimes, in fact, most of both do not.

Those who argue for the first interpretation are claiming that proportionality is important in terms of population which is errant for the reasons I just outlined.

As well... Those statistics fail to tell us about repeat offenders

Also the many charges during one criminal moment (eg brandishing, assault, robbery) all in one encounter...

Furthermore they do not account for criminals not caught and crimes not reported...

Crime statistics are bull#.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

I see just as many strong Black families as Hispanic or White ones. I see broken families, dysfunctional families, etc. etc. in all racial groups and they all have similar results. It's not unique to Blacks or Black culture is my only point here. That's not saying that there ISN'T a problem in Black culture, because there is, but the problem is not WITH BLACK CULTURE as a whole, which is what I so often hear.

I guess that is my point, I agree with you. I do to see the same as you, I work, play, engage in good times with people of all races, but in these places where we see violence with everyone including the cops I only see dysfunction. Take Ferguson for example, a very close black friend of mine told me on a work day after seeing all the protesters hanging out late at night on TV like some kind of carnival that if they actually had a job they would be home in bed. He wasn't saying it in a positive way, more like the people are failing themselves as much as anything else, and don't get me started with what they say about college BLM.

I appreciate your ideas, and I don't mean to make it sound like I'm telling you that you can't have your opinions, because that's the opposite of what I'm actually saying (or the contrapositive, I'm never quite sure). Also, I only see what I see, and I'm not infallible by any means, shape, form or fashion.

Yes we do have different options.

There are problems a plenty in our world to go around for sure; I hope we're all doing SOMETHING to help out.

I was in India on a military mission and they put me up in a 5 star hotel. All the luxuries you can ask for until I went outside of the compound and saw 2 million people living in cardboard boxes. I have been to about 70 plus countries and seen so many levels of poor people who truly have nothing that the poorest in America would be rich to them, and I think that has affected of views here at home.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Gryphon66

I still don't entirely understand... but I think you confirmed for me what I was thinking. So, for example, if one Black gangbanger commits 100 crimes, those 100 crimes are going to be statistically represented as 100 Black people commiting crimes, which totally and completely skews the statistical perception.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics -- Mark Twain

That's another rather extreme way to look at it, but that is part of the problem using a per capita estimate, yes.

But the statistic it doesn't change is the race of the offender the police will have to deal with. Police respond to violent crime. If over 70 percent of incidents are caused by blacks which group do you think is more likely to get shot by police. Want to solve this problem they need to get the numbers back in line with population. Since right now it screams a problem when vs whites and hispanics.