Satan's part in the Creation?

a reply to: Gothmog
I'm not a believer but I always interpreted that as God speaking to his angels, including what became known as the dragon, or satan (but not Lucifer as I mentioned) who was the leader of some if not all, angels created to worship God, before any mention of the angels who were to serve man, in the manner of a teacher in a classroom saying 'hey kids, lets make an explosion in water with caesium!' where the real meaning is, 'Watch what I'm about to show you'.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: scorpio84

Congratulations!!!! You are the 1 billionth person to interpret the bible. Make sure you stay on the line to collect your prize.

You are off your rocker because you are taking ancient mythology as if it were actually meant to be descriptive of reality. It is as simple as that. Religion is whats wrong with the world. Peoples personal revelations and interpretations of what the bible is "trying" to say, or what this or that quote "really" means, is never ending. It's just a work of fiction like war of the worlds. Some people fell for that story too. Humans fall for stories all the time.

Do you have proof of anything you said ? Or is it just your "interpretation" ? I am betting the latter.If you cant improve on the silence.....

Proof that the bible is mythology? Of course i have proof. The stories in the bible are full of talking animals and people doing impossible acts. Is that not proof enough? Do you really believe that thousands of people rose from their graves? Of course not, because it's mythology.

no that is not proof
what we can not phathom or see as possible we call it myth but unless we were there we are simply applying todays standards to the past and that can never be 100%
anything is possible

a reply to: Woodcarver

Congratulations! not one of the arguments you presented was well thought out, and they all show a lack of critical thinking skills!!! *Awards with dunce cap*

originally posted by: Learningman
a reply to: Gothmog
I'm not a believer but I always interpreted that as God speaking to his angels, including what became known as the dragon, or satan (but not Lucifer as I mentioned) who was the leader of some if not all, angels created to worship God, before any mention of the angels who were to serve man, in the manner of a teacher in a classroom saying 'hey kids, lets make an explosion in water with caesium!' where the real meaning is, 'Watch what I'm about to show you'.

The teacher-student analogy is interesting. If that were the case, what would God be teaching to the angels? I think you are basing your claim that Lucifer was not referred to in Genesis 1:3 by the fact that the name appears only in Isaiah. However, does absence of the name mean absence of the character? I am curious what you think of Helel ben Shahar taking his surname from his mother. I thought it was the surname from the father (I'm aware that Jews trace blood lineage through the mother). Is there any significance to taking his mother's name - or does this just tell us his father was a non-figure in his life?

a reply to: Learningman

Brilliant rebuttal...

I'm speechless.

FYI: the source is still available on Wayback Machine but links do not function on ATS, I've tried them.

a reply to: scorpio84

Ok wow

i wished the op had the things in it you write here now

because it's short and there is a hint of doubting it is easy to underestimate the though process

You write some good points (I really really like the reply to the Satan have us knowledge art music comment ) i am glad I subscribed

a reply to: scorpio84

Ok so if the answer is

Yes he had a hand in creation

then that means that ?

a reply to: Layaly

Well, if he had a hand in creation, then that would change the rebellion story, I think. As we have it now, he was full of pride and wanted to be exalted above God and all that. But what if...

he wanted to be exalted above God in terms of humanity?

On another path of thinking, what if he wanted to give humanity the knowledge of the angels? Better than try to explain this, I think it would be better to ask this: what if the Fall and reasons for it are another version of the Prometheus story?

Sorry that I ask more than I answer.

originally posted by: scorpio84
a reply to: Layaly

Well, if he had a hand in creation, then that would change the rebellion story, I think. As we have it now, he was full of pride and wanted to be exalted above God and all that. But what if...

he wanted to be exalted above God in terms of humanity?

On another path of thinking, what if he wanted to give humanity the knowledge of the angels? Better than try to explain this, I think it would be better to ask this: what if the Fall and reasons for it are another version of the Prometheus story?

Sorry that I ask more than I answer.

You mean this bit?

The greater Titanomachia depicts an overarching metaphor of the struggle between generations, between parents and their children, symbolic of the generation of parents needing to eventually give ground to the growing needs, vitality, and responsibilities of the new generation for the perpetuation of society and survival interests of the human race as a whole. Prometheus and his struggle would be of vast merit to human society as well in this mythology as he was to be credited with the creation of humans and therefore all of humanity as well.

a reply to: Layaly

Prometheus and his struggle would be of vast merit to human society as well in this mythology as he was to be credited with the creation of humans and therefore all of humanity as well.

Actually, I was just thinking about the whole thing of getting punished for imparting knowledge to humanity. The whole part of being the actual creator of humanity would fit in well, also.

a reply to: scorpio84

I mean the tutor/student angle as some figure who is more learned showing a group that they love/care for/nurture something fantastic, not so much as a lesson, but to show something really cool. I don't mean it as God teaching his angels with the intention that they should learn, and be allowed to do it themselves, just that it is something He may have wanted them to witness.

Also, the 'Lucifer' part to me, and again its just me, is not greatly important to the 'Satan' figure, I just think that Light-Bearer is something recently added to his character. So no, absence of the name does not mean an absence of the character, just the title of morning-star or light-bringer.

Satan was apparently beautiful and loved God enormously, but I don't think it is related to the creation of light. However, your original post DID make me wonder whether Satan and the other angels bore witness to it (all of the creation really) as its accepted some (it might not be all) angels were created before 'creation' to praise God. Whether these angels are the same ones that are also the same angels that are stated later to be to serve mankind, is another question entirely, and I'm drifting.

a reply to: Learningman

if God created all who created God

aren't we part of it all

I like the replies here a lot

lovely thread

a reply to: Layaly

I truly feel for the religious when they get asked that, because even as non-religious as I am, that question makes my mind go blank. If I get a migraine I blame you!

a reply to: scorpio84

Gen 1:3 "Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness Here we clearly see God giving an order and I posit that it was Lucifer ("the light bearer") who carried out this order. Clearly, I'm putting the creation of the universe before the Fall. If I'm off my rocker, tell me why.

No, you are not off your rocker. You are entitled to your belief the same as all are also entitled to their opinions.

My belief is that when the Creator said "Let there be light" that the Creator brought forth His visibility which was called "The Word of God." The reason I do believe that is from the writing of Apostle John ----

John 1:1-5
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Lucifer is a Latin translation from the unknown word Heylel. Both Lucifer and Heylel has our meaning as to referencing the chief angel of the celestial creation. The following is the latest true translation directly from the Hebrew to the English. ----

Eth Cepher – YESHA’ YAHU – Isaiah 14:12-15
(12) How art you fallen from heaven, O Heylel, son of the howling morning! How are you cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (13) For you have said in your heart, I will be like EL ELYON. (15) Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the sides of the pit.

So as I have been led to understand this light bearer thing which so many are taught as being Lucifer is not as it seems. Yes the creation of the world and universe was before the war in heaven led by the first Satan. Lucifer, Heylel, Satan are all the same created angel. Heylel is not known in Hebrew the same as Lucifer was not known in Latin. Jerome created the name Lucifer to describe the Satan of heaven. A Satan is any spirit who is against the Creator so we have many Satan's. Jerome simply tagged the name Lucifer to describe the chief Satan. As Jerome tried to translate Heylel to Latin he found nothing in Hebrew that would describe this Heylel. He then simply called Heylel Lucifer.

Now getting back to the light of Genesis one. The darkness of this creation has no effect to the celestial realm in my understanding. Separation of light and darkness was for this creation only and no other purpose was it created.

Psalms _139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

There is nothing in tradition that tells us that any of the creation can create. Heylel or Lucifer was a created entity and had no power to create. If he could have created then he would have competed with God and not been cast down to this earth. This light of the first day is called the primeval light as our sun was not placed till the fifth day. This primeval light is that which John calls "Life". Our artificial sun is life giving but not the primeval light of life.

a reply to: Layaly

a reply to: Learningman - if God created all who created God aren't we part of it all I like the replies here a lot lovely thread

If you cut your finger off and cast it aside would it still be a part of you? Yes and no or would it be yes or no?

a reply to: Seede + Learningman

I really like the vibe here can't help it

thank you ponder and live it ultimately that's what we have been given

Forgive me my arrogance, but upon reading this thread, the following came to the forefront of my consciousness.

If one were to find themselves in a vast accelerated holographic landscape, by which every command and utterance became manifest immediately, and your initial "order" was for the light to come on so you could see what the hell you were doing...well, then Let There Be Light.

Doesn't answer who created the holographic construct very much, but therein lies the mysteries, n'est-ce pas?

I suppose what I am alluding to is that this "adversary" - "Satan" - "Lucifer" my have been the creator of the material chamber by which the God Will command manifested it's self according to the god's desires and wishes.

The temptation of Adam and Eve was kind of like a backdoor program allowing the devices constructor to interact with the idea manifest by the god who borrowed or purchased the use of the original, empty holographic construct "reality generator".

I mean think about it, someone makes a machine that grants wishes and desires....and you find some yahoo "god" getting all weird with it's use and creating lifeforms for it's amusement, and you feel little bad seeing the new lifeforms being used in that manner...would you not also seek to provide liberation from such treatment by instilling self awareness?

Now I'm now saying I'm correct in this....but speaking as someone with a loose understanding of both mythos and programming, it would make sense to me that the "adversary" in this Creation scenario might have been an original programmer with back door into the God Construct Manifest.

So of course, you bought a product and some hacker back-doors your experiment, tweaks the prime directive of it's sentient life-form constructs and of course...because you bought the God Machine thinking you were in complete ownership and control you get bit cheesed off.

ENTER - THE ADVERSARY.
That no good rogue hacker who destroyed the thoughtscape experiment!
But we're here now so...not much we can do bout it but make do.

Also, please note I have nothing but respect for the original Works by which we are discussing this scenario, Logos - the word - and all that implies....and there are wonderful lessons to be learned from Said Work, if - as has been mentioned already - one knows how to properly read said Work within the proper context parameters.

Devils, demons, and the like are ghosts in the machine plying with the Godhead design.

And so...The Great Cosmic Story continues to unfold.

Did I speak literal truth or mere allegorical metaphor here?

I'll leave the humans to fight over it.
They seem to enjoy fighting for some reason.

originally posted by: GENERAL EYES


I suppose what I am alluding to is that this "adversary" - "Satan" - "Lucifer" my have been the creator of the material chamber by which the God Will command manifested it's self according to the god's desires and wishes.

"my have been" [or should that have been "may have been"?] does not mean that it was or is. Lame conjecture is a thin cord upon which to hang a theory. Can you throw up a real foundation?

a reply to: scorpio84

Satan really doesn't have a part in the Creation account because he wasn't invented until Christianity was invented (the NT), though that hasn't prevented Christians from trying to retcon him into older biblical tales.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: scorpio84

Satan really doesn't have a part in the Creation account because he wasn't invented until Christianity was invented (the NT), though that hasn't prevented Christians from trying to retcon him into older biblical tales.

Just like they do with Hell, but I have yet to find proof in the Bible [still looking]. If I get to the end of the Revelation without finding proof, I will conclude that there is only Heaven & Earth, so we won't need to worry, at least, about that...

BTW, thanks for the use of the word "retcon" - new to me, but a good word, and very appropriate re the Devil/Satan/Lucifer.