Turkey shot down Russian Jet: reportedly by two F16's

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: bjarneorn

If Russia attacks Turkey, it will be declaring war on NATO. It cannot win that war; the best it can hope for is to destroy all life on the planet.

True but that works both ways.

As much as I hate to talk about nuclear scenarios.

Russia vs NATO or NATO vs Russia, earth loses.

I just lost talking about it!

a reply to: bjarneorn

That's an infantile understanding of the concept.

Who on earth, do you think is going to kill themselves in multitude for you? NOBODY.

Which is why Putin would have to be insane to order a nuclear strike.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: bjarneorn

Let's take Ukraine as an example. Russia decides to nuke it ... what are you going to do, bomb moscow and have Russia, the US and Europe all destroyed in a big blast of boom?

Absolutely. Of course, it would start with tactical strikes against missile bases, aircraft carriers, airports and so forth. Russia would need to fire off its entire arsenal to keep it from being destroyed, and pray that the American missile defense shield doesn't work as advertised.

I hardly believe that USA has a missile defense shield that can take on several thousand nukes.

a reply to: SBargisen

That is true, we hear 'they wouldn't', only a madman would resort to actually using nukes, i do not consider Putin as a madman.
There is simply nothing to gain from such a scenario, everybody is well aware of that.
Now if we for some reason go crazy and attack Russia, they might resort to pressing the button, but it won't destroy earth, nor will it safe Russia.
But were not crazy, Russia is part of Europe and despite the mumbo jumbo in the media about nato and so on, the Germany/France axle has good ties with Russia.
This is again underlined with the renewed alliance between Russia and France against IS.

Talking about nukes is like a hamster running in it's wheel.

At least the hamster gets exercise, we get nothing from it.

Dropping a fart is more productive.

a reply to: bjarneorn

Well, you disagree, but you said essentially exactly the same thing I did.

"Mutually" means 'both'. Mutually Assured Destruction means, as I've said (with an analogy); Party A knows in advance that if they launch a strike on Party B, Party B may be destroyed, but Party A will also be destroyed, hence the word "mutual".

In other words; by pushing the "button" you know 'both' (Mutual) you and your opponent can be 'Assured' they will be Destoyed entirely. Period.

a reply to: earthling42

I for one, like Russia and respect Putin. And in this case, I emphasize with Russia and NOT Turkey. Turkey simply #ed up, and I don't think anyone should meddle in their business, no matter what happens from here.
- If Russia decides to take it out on Turkey, so be it. Turkey did fire the first shot, and if it can't be deescalated to a point, where they aren't shooting eachother down, then so be it.

I am certain that Turkey will get retaliated on by Russia.

a reply to: Imhere

I totally agree. No nukes are going to be exchanged over this; none. I've said it repeatedly. My only entry into this line of discussion has been to clarify points, or to point out how silly it is.

a reply to: bjarneorn

Putin is not stupid, there won't be a decision to nuke Ukraine.

a reply to: SBargisen

I emphasize with Russia and NOT Turkey. Turkey simply #ed up

We agree on that

a reply to: SBargisen

Turkey started all this anyway by backing IS and other terrorist in Syria. Russia is trying to help out on request the secular government in Damascus from terrorism instigated by Sunni governments.............Primarily Turkey. Anybody (especially Christian) who can side with the terrorists in Ankara should be disgusted with their own views.

source

So they warned 10 times in five minutes a crossing of 17 seconds!?

A 2 mile "trespassing" (no trespassing acording to the Russian) for a jet plane doesn't last 17 second's, but (562miles/hour [not the top speed]) 6,4 seconds! Amazing!?









Turkish violations of Greek airspace:

a reply to: voyger2

So they warned 10 times in five minutes a crossing of 17 seconds!?

A 2 mile "trespassing" (no trespassing acording to the Russian) for a jet plane doesn't last 17 second's, but (562miles/hour [not the top speed]) 6,4 seconds! Amazing!?

They warned Russia that any violation would be met with force. They kept their word, and Putin is trying to lie his way out of taking responsibility. Obviously, the warnings were given as the planes looped closer and loser to the border. It was like a childish game: "I'm going to tickle you... no I'm not. I'm going to tickle you... no I'm not. I'm going to tickle you...."

a reply to: SBargisen

I am certain that Turkey will get retaliated on by Russia.

Putin will huff and puff and quietly order his air operations further from the border.

a reply to: DJW001

Well I understand what you are saying. But I don't agree. Because this kind of violation it is not a threat or enough threat to shot down an airplane, and remember Erdogan own words:


So this is an hypocritical speech and action, that doesn't have any suport on Turkish President statements and military actions, as you can see by the number of violations of the Greek airspace, just in 2014: 2244

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Indigo5

What you state here is nothing New. Russia is on Assads side..... The political head of Syria.

Russia said they would target the rebels because they are also terrorsits. But Putin has asked the US and the UN about who the moderate rebels are. But the US will no share that information. Why???

No...Putin...while carpet bombing rebel locations in support of Assad asked the US for intelligence on Rebel locations...NOT "who the moderate rebels are"...like Putin is unaware of the difference between the Turkmen and ISIS?? Really? that's the claim you are hanging your hat on???

Why TF would the US give him moderate rebel locations and movements? So he can better bomb them?

Honestly...With the Paris attacks?...The EU, NATO and US might go in and own Syria and take it away from Vlad. He obviously can't handle it on his own and the EU is paying the price for his failure. He made the winning bid to own Syria (the largest commitment of military) and he is failing to come up with the purchase price and thus ISIS is growing. The rest of the Western world should roll through Syria and put in a UN occupation (not dominated by the US for once).

Syria needs to be settled...and it needs to happen yesterday...and while Putin has figured out this ends in a ground war, he also knows his military is not capable of a full ground war. They are poorly prepared, funded and trained. In Ukrain he was able to get away with local ground rebel forces and send in Spec Ops, supplies and limited troops. In Syria...Assad's army really sucks and he is bombing the rebels, not working with them..His only option is sending in massive troops on the ground and that will have a very high price in dollars and lives. He thought bombing would work and it's not...even before losing a plane and rescue chopper. He's at a bad pivot point of needing the US/EU/NATO to bail him out and their asking price is going to be evicting him and Assad from Syria.

originally posted by: voyger2
a reply to: DJW001

So this is an hypocritical speech and action, that doesn't have any suport on Turkish President statements and military actions, as you can see by the number of violations of the Greek airspace, just in 2014: 2244

The difference is that when Turkey Pilots crossed into Greek airspace they weren't dropping bombs 500 yards off the greek border. AND they made radio contact assuring Greece they were on their way...sorry about that bud..

Russia has been bombing Turks in the region and using Turkish airspace to align their bombing runs...and not responding to Turkish airforce calls at all...a complete eff-you.

Hell Airforces violate one anothers space all the time..but to ignore radio queries while dropping bombs???

Please..

Russian Market ‏@russian_market · 5 min.
#BREAKING TURKEY ARMY DEPLOYS TANKS, ARMORED CARS ON SYRIA BORDER: AA

Also reports of whole Turkish military on the move. Re enforcing the border.

a reply to: voyger2

It is not hypocritical, Turkey did not attack, it defended. It was absolutely necessary because Putin repects nothing but strength. Erdogan has proven that he is as tough as Putin, so now they can talk man-to-man. It sounds a bit childish, but that's the psychology of it.

a reply to: Indigo5

Well I don't agree with you.
A fighting against terrorism is going on. Turky say they are fighting it, but at the same time they are bombing the kurds, also fighting it, they are shooting down russian airplanes, also fighting it, and, they are trading oil for money, a thing that is not called fighting it.

So, for someone with rational and logical thought, all I see here is Tukey supporting ISIS instead of fighting it.

About your diference, it is not a diference, because the bombs are droping in Syria and not in Turkey. They have double standards on this pratical dispute that shouldn't be taken. Because they all say they want (?) to fight ISIS.. but they shot down someone that is doing it.

Just as a side note, for what we can read from what's coming out, the pilot who got rescued says this:

There were no warnings. Not via the radio, not visually. There was no contact whatsoever. That's why we were keeping our combat course as usual. You have to understand what the cruising speed of a bomber is compared to an F-16. If they wanted to warn us, they could have shown themselves by heading on a parallel course. But there was nothing. And the rocket hit our tail completely unexpectedly. We didn't even see it in time to take evasive maneuvres.

source[editby ]edit on 25/11/2015 by voyger2 because: (no reason given)