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Turkey shot down Russian Jet: reportedly by two F16's

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posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:15 AM
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a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

One thing I don't get. Why can Turkey keep being a part of Nato, when they clearly support ISIS. The same goes for the US, but the evidence there is a bit more vague, and the US is a bit more needed in NATO.




posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:16 AM
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a reply to: CynConcepts

I did not know that. Makes more sense now, and just disregard my last post then.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:21 AM
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originally posted by: SBargisen
Let me ask you a question, would you not, given your enemy has a gun pointed to your head, and you have the possibility to atleast take your enemy down with you, do that exact thing? My bet is, that most would.


Let us expand this scenario ... we have a crime bos, Mr.Scarface who walks around with a big bomb around his belt. So we can't arrest the guy, nor can we put up any force to do that as they'd go along with him. As long as we "know" he's gonna blow himself up.

We have three solutions here.

Solution 1.
We stay well away, and have a proxy (Europe) approach the guy. If he blows himself up, then he and the proxy die, we live to enrich ourselves from his demise.

Solution 2.
Assuming Mr.Scarface has a family ... we tell him, that he can "shoot his own brains" and not blow up everyone around him, and we'll make sure all his family and friends, will live a good life. Scouts honor.

Solution 3.
We tell someone close to Mr.Scarface, that if (s)he ends his life in a quiet manner, where the bomb won't go off. We'll secure him/her including friends and family. This is also known as the "Sacrificial concept", Sacficie the few to save the many.


You see, your concept of the ultimate defense in a MAD manner is nonsense. The ONLY true defense, is offense.


edit on 25/11/2015 by bjarneorn because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:23 AM
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a reply to: SBargisen

Turkey is a critical ally in NATO if for no other reason than their geographical location.

Secondly, I think you would find Turkey doesn't see it like they are supporting ISIS. They see it like they are benefitting from favorable trade deals while "maybe" turning a blind eye to the source of those deals.

You would be shocked to learn of all the unsavory business partners the world economy has.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:23 AM
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a reply to: bjarneorn



You see, your concept of the ultimate defense in a MAD manner is nonsense. The ONLY true defense, is offense.



As I said.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:30 AM
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originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: SBargisen

Turkey is a critical ally in NATO if for no other reason than their geographical location.

Secondly, I think you would find Turkey doesn't see it like they are supporting ISIS. They see it like they are benefitting from favorable trade deals while "maybe" turning a blind eye to the source of those deals.

You would be shocked to learn of all the unsavory business partners the world economy has.



Completely agree. Turkey is critical. Yet, even I was surprised at how unsavory their dealings are.


key transit route for Southwest Asian heroin to Western Europe and, to a lesser extent, the US - via air, land, and sea routes; major Turkish and other international trafficking organizations operate out of Istanbul; laboratories to convert imported morphine base into heroin exist in remote regions of Turkey and near Istanbul; government maintains strict controls over areas of legal opium poppy cultivation and over output of poppy straw concentrate; lax enforcement of money-laundering controls


Source Link:  CIA.gov Library



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:30 AM
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a reply to: bjarneorn

That's not how MAD works.

Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) means if you even think about destroying my cookies, know this in advance; me and all my friends are going to destroy not only your cookies, but a thousand future generations of your cookies...along with the ovens they cook them in, the houses the ovens live in, the gas lines which feed them and the plants which make the gas. Nothing will be left, but ashes.

That's MAD



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:47 AM
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a reply to: SBargisen

Let's turn it around, Russia is not really that big.
Of course Russia may press the red button but is has to divide its bombs because the targets are everywhere.
The rest of the world simply targets the populated area and Russia is history.

Now back to sanity, those wmds are useless, it might give a sense of safety and even a sense of power, but no more.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:47 AM
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a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

you seem to know more about radar, than me.

I read in a german news outlet from an aviation guy, he mentionend its possible to fly a sneak attack witout (onboard) radar. when groundstation acts as radar and guides the plane.

I could not really imagine that - what's your take on this?

Edit/add: and what do pilots see? They get the info on all radars tracking them? (including ground radars?

edit on 25-11-2015 by svetlana84 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:52 AM
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originally posted by: earthling42
a reply to: SBargisen

Let's turn it around, Russia is not really that big.
Of course Russia may press the red button but is has to divide its bombs because the targets are everywhere.
The rest of the world simply targets the populated area and Russia is history.

Now back to sanity, those wmds are useless, it might give a sense of safety and even a sense of power, but no more.



But Russia has alot of nukes. And this is a perfectly logically scenario. We can't keep going around saying "Nah, they wouldn't." We need to assess all possibilities. There is a possibility that Russia invades Turkey within 24 hours, albeit unlikely.

It doesn't just give a sense of power, in this world it is power. War capabilities and the capability of destroying Earth as we know it, is power. There really isn't anything else to say to it.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:53 AM
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originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk

That's MAD



NO, that's not really how it works ... it's just a "simplistic" and "naive" understanding of it.

MAD, is basically ... you kill me, you die in the process. (Mutually Assured Destruction). Focus on the word "Mutually", not on the understanding of the word MAD.

it's MAD, not MAA. Because that would a bunch of suicide bombers, and none of these players are.

All parties, are working on being able to use nuclear weapons to "destroy" smaller players. So, what it really means ... is, if I decide to destroy turkey ... you better mind your own business. Because if you decide to interfere, sure I acknowledge you can destroy me ... but I ASSURE you ... you'll be exterminated in the process.

This is what MAD means, and why we have the permanent members of the UN security council. And you can rest assured, that neither the US, Russia or China will be playing any other game, for any future time to come.

edit on 25/11/2015 by bjarneorn because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:55 AM
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a reply to: SBargisen


No matter what, it just doesn't justify to shoot down a plane with course out of the region, given that Turkey tells the truth. 17 seconds in their airspace just doesn't cut shooting it down. Plus, they shot the plane IN SYRIAN TERRITORY, so they actually chased it outside of their own airspace to shoot it down.


Notice that Russia is using exactly the same disinformation strategy that they used in order to poison the MH-17 well. First they claimed that the planes were shot down over Syria by "terrorist" artillery. Then they claimed that they were shot down over Syrian territory by Turkish jets, and that both pilots were killed while parachuting down. Then they claimed that the Turkish planes were over Syrian airspace, but that one pilot survived to confirm that story.

Why all the contradictions? So that rumor mills will feed conspiracy theorists with enough disinformation that they will never accept the obvious, labeling it the "Official Story" and using the disinformation supplied by Russia to make the media look like it is intentionally lying. I really haven't much more to say about this topic than this:

Syrian and Russian jets have been violating Turkish airspace. Recently, a Turkish jet was shot down for violating Syrian airspace. Turkey warned Russia that any violation of its airspace would result in the plane being shot down. Russia knew that, the air force officers knew that, and the pilots knew that. The mission was known to be dangerous. Having made the warning, Turkey had absolutely no choice but to follow through, since the head of the Russian government, Vladimir Putin, respects absolutely nothing but strength. Maybe now Turkey and Russia can sit at the same negotiating table.

As for the FSA shooting at the pilots as they parachuted down, that is clearly a violation of the Geneva Conventions and should be condemned even by its supporters. On the other hand, it is understandable that, having seen your friends and family being murdered by jet pilots....



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:58 AM
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a reply to: bjarneorn

If Russia attacks Turkey, it will be declaring war on NATO. It cannot win that war; the best it can hope for is to destroy all life on the planet.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 09:59 AM
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Thanks to MAD, the current proxy war/insurgency in Syria would not go nuclear between covert or overt state sponsors on both sides of the conflict. However, it may not imply that other countries in the region would remain unaffected by this chaos either. We could possibly witness the steady unraveling of post WW1 order in the middle east when the winners drew the boundaries of the currently existing nations in the region.

Another area to look out for is Yemen where the Houthi rebels are inflicting losses on the GCC coalition to such an extent that this coalition is now relying on Colombian mercenaries as well as Sudanese troops to conduct the ground campaign inside Yemen .
edit on 25-11-2015 by order in chaos because: addition of country name



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 10:00 AM
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a reply to: SBargisen

See the answer of Flyingclaydisk.

Plus there are other factors:

They align with US since after 9/11.
Plus they want to be part of EU.

Still they have their own interests:

- they hate the kurds
- they support the Turkmens (in the region where the SU was shot down)
- cheap oil from ISIS (up to 800 millions worth they got already, according to Russia.
- last but not least: they are islamis



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 10:03 AM
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originally posted by: earthling42

Now back to sanity, those wmds are useless, it might give a sense of safety and even a sense of power, but no more.



Yes, and No. They are useless as a MAD concept ...

Let's take Ukraine as an example. Russia decides to nuke it ... what are you going to do, bomb moscow and have Russia, the US and Europe all destroyed in a big blast of boom?

This is your "idea" of MAD, and it's a wrong one. What on earth, makes you think that the US is going to sacrifice all it's citizens for a back water 3rd world nazi country like Ukraine? seriously. The idea, that this scenario is going to happen is outwordly insane ... it's infantile. If Russia and Europe went at it, the US would stand by and harwest what ever was left.

None of these players are MAD, as in ISIS suicide bombers. So, if Russia decides to Nuke Ukraine ... that's just going to be Ukraine, and then there will be a conflict which may include "individual" Nukes, on both sides ... but NO MUTUAL ANNIHILATION.

What MAD does, is that it assures that China and the US, will never go at it at each other. They'll look the other way, when one of these players has something "major" on their heart. They may use insurgency, proxies ... and they'll use a lot of MSM rhetoric, but they'll BUTT OUT OF YOUR BUSINESS.

The only "madness" in Nukes. That if you have them, as US does, and Russia ... you better think twice before "relinguishing" them ... because that's a death warrant. You'll be a corpse, for all the maggots in the world to feast upon.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 10:05 AM
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originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: bjarneorn

If Russia attacks Turkey, it will be declaring war on NATO. It cannot win that war; the best it can hope for is to destroy all life on the planet.


Nope. Nato will not support Turkey. US might support Turkey.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 10:06 AM
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originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: bjarneorn

If Russia attacks Turkey, it will be declaring war on NATO. It cannot win that war; the best it can hope for is to destroy all life on the planet.


That's an infantile understanding of the concept.

Who on earth, do you think is going to kill themselves in multitude for you? NOBODY.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 10:07 AM
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a reply to: DJW001

I think it was a tactical move by Russia to first say, they got shot down by rebels.

It gave them time to asses the situation without pointing fingers at turkey yet.

Remember, the Turks first said they downed a plane, but don't know which nationality it was.

So a good move by russia to assess first.

BTW i posted a video of a State department press briefing, 24hrs after shotdown they still claim 'we have to gather info'.

edit on 25-11-2015 by svetlana84 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 10:08 AM
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a reply to: bjarneorn


Let's take Ukraine as an example. Russia decides to nuke it ... what are you going to do, bomb moscow and have Russia, the US and Europe all destroyed in a big blast of boom?


Absolutely. Of course, it would start with tactical strikes against missile bases, aircraft carriers, airports and so forth. Russia would need to fire off its entire arsenal to keep it from being destroyed, and pray that the American missile defense shield doesn't work as advertised.



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