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Turkey shot down Russian Jet: reportedly by two F16's

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posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:20 AM
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originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: angryhulk
Russia, in either version, should have responded to warnings.

Oh, that part. Yes. When someone warns you that you are in their airspace the natural response is no I am not, not ignoring them. Russia does not deny they were warned about being in Turkish airspace. So in both versions Turkey said "you are in our airspace".


And back to my question. If they were in Syrian airspace, is it obligatory to respond to Turkey?

Obligatory? No. Smart? Yes. If someone claims I am doing something wrong, that I have been caught doing before, and I am not it's fairly stupid to keep going and ignoring them.

If I trespass on someone's property and they have caught me doing it, and they run up to me saying I am doing it again and ask why I am there holding a gun to my head it's very idiotic to ignore him and keep walking when I am a few steps off his property. Since I am not an idiot, I would say I am not on your property and I have no intention of entering it.


Thanks.

Obligatory - No.

No one said it was obligatory in both scenarios. I said it was obligatory in the first, and common sense and should have been done in either. So I fail to see what the point of all that was.


The question was "is it obligatory for Russia to respond to Turkey if Russia was in Syrian airspace" the answer is "no", common sense means nothing. That's the point. Quite a strong point.

And if it was Turkish airspace it IS obligatory. That's the point. Quite a strong point.

So in one scenario Russia is wrong, in the other just stupid.




posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:20 AM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Belgianbloke
a reply to: Xcathdra

Okay, but with what purpose?
Turkey and Russia are economic allies. Doesn't make to much sense to me .
They recently signed a huge contract that would benefit both country's.

Turkey had no idea it was Russian, they may have thought it was Syrian. If Russia had responded to the warnings maybe things would be different.


Bah! Humbug! Turkey knew full well it was Russian. They have been threatening Russia they would do it and have been moaning about it. Lol, I bet Russia put just one wing over the line like a tease and Turkey went pew pew pew.

This whole Syria thing is being wound up deliberately. I am still looking to find what the real game plan is for the Western Cabal and how Russia will approach it when push comes to shove.

IS are the excuse. I think they have been deliberately manufactured to be the excuse. May be the U.S wants Syria real bad, taking it off Assad, Putin and Iran (all of whom are not puppets of the West). They have been willing to sacrifice so much to get Assad and have a pro Western puppet government there like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc, states that now have to put up with the instability of constant civil violence; being held back as nations deliberately, weak and dependent on the U.S and the West. Same old game folks as it has been for thousands of years.

The West has also used terrorism in general to develop a new kind of state to secure their power in the future. This new kind of state is backed by draconian patriot laws and surveillance. They have been patching up all the holes and making sure they have tight control of the populace to insure no alternatives ever threaten their status quo.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:21 AM
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Things can become bad:


Impossible to answer' whether right to self-defence will be invoked, says Putin's spokesman Asked whether Russia will invoke its right to self-defence as envisaged in the UN Charter over the loss of its military aircraft on the Syrian-Turkish border, Russian presidential press secretary Dmitriy Peskov replied: "Until there are clarifying reports, it is impossible to answer this question." He said: "So far, the defence ministry has not yet confirmed what brought our warplane down. We know for a fact that the aircraft was in Syrian airspace, above Syrian territory." He refused to confirm rumours that President Vladimir Putin was planning to call an extraordinary meeting of the Russian Security Council following the incident. But he added it is likely Putin may discuss the matter during talks with Jordanian King Abdullah II in Sochi today.


From BBC



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:21 AM
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a reply to: asen_y2k

If Russia was in the right they would not e downplaying it by blaming someone else.

Secondly why would russia claim ground fire when they just said its not clear what brought the plane down?

Turkey can also invoke the UN charter.
edit on 24-11-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:21 AM
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Turkey has a split agenda with respect to the fighting in Syria. They are pro-Sunni, anti-Shia and *VERY* anti-Kurd. "Officially" anti ISIL. That said everyone in Syria has more agendas than a beach has sand.

Turkey and Russia relations can be best described as "Cool". Turkey has been warning Russia about entering it's airspace for weeks. A Russian Su-30 was almost shot down October 15th after it "got lost in the fog". Turkish President Erdogan has told Russia they risked losing a friend and warned of possible NATO involvement.

Cooler heads must prevail.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:21 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?


And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:22 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: asen_y2k

If Russia was in the right they would not e downplaying it by blaming someone else.


Read the latest quote of the Russian def ministry. This can get bad. I posted it above.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:22 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

So - in Syrian airspace.

There ya go !

The Turks seem to have plenty to answer for ...

To not many friendly faces me thinks ...



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:23 AM
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originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Rocker2013

Can manpads reach 6000 meters / 3.728 miles / 19,683 feet?


Turkey confirmed that it used 2 F-16s to shoot down the SU-24. Russia is trying to save the situation by saying the plane may have been ahor down from the ground. But Turkey vehemently claiming responsibility is not helping.

Yes, Turkey is definitely acting strangely. They must really want to make a point.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:24 AM
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originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?


And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.


And it also shows the violation.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:24 AM
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originally posted by: Timely
a reply to: Xcathdra

So - in Syrian airspace.

There ya go !

The Turks seem to have plenty to answer for ...

To not many friendly faces me thinks ...


But Turkey themselves published the radar data, even when Russia is trying to downplay the situation by claiming it may have been hit from ground fire, Turkey is shouting out that 2 of its F16 hit the SU24.


Why? What does Turkey want?
edit on 24/11/15 by asen_y2k because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:25 AM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: angryhulk
Russia, in either version, should have responded to warnings.

Oh, that part. Yes. When someone warns you that you are in their airspace the natural response is no I am not, not ignoring them. Russia does not deny they were warned about being in Turkish airspace. So in both versions Turkey said "you are in our airspace".


And back to my question. If they were in Syrian airspace, is it obligatory to respond to Turkey?

Obligatory? No. Smart? Yes. If someone claims I am doing something wrong, that I have been caught doing before, and I am not it's fairly stupid to keep going and ignoring them.

If I trespass on someone's property and they have caught me doing it, and they run up to me saying I am doing it again and ask why I am there holding a gun to my head it's very idiotic to ignore him and keep walking when I am a few steps off his property. Since I am not an idiot, I would say I am not on your property and I have no intention of entering it.


Thanks.

Obligatory - No.

No one said it was obligatory in both scenarios. I said it was obligatory in the first, and common sense and should have been done in either. So I fail to see what the point of all that was.


The question was "is it obligatory for Russia to respond to Turkey if Russia was in Syrian airspace" the answer is "no", common sense means nothing. That's the point. Quite a strong point.

And if it was Turkish airspace it IS obligatory. That's the point. Quite a strong point.

So in one scenario Russia is wrong, in the other just stupid.


You're saying that now because more information has been released detailing a journey through Turkish airspace, but you did not say that before because I was not asking about Turkish airspace, I was asking about Syrian airspace, your answer was simply no because that was the correct answer. Russia do not have to respond to Turkey outside of Turkish airspace. By law they do not need to respond. Who cares about common sense and stupidity...

Anyway, given they HAD entered Turkish airspace, briefly, our discussion is different.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:25 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?


And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.


And it also shows the violation.


I think shooting a Russian plane in Syrian airspace is also a violation.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:27 AM
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So what's Russian gonna do?

Bomb Turkey?



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:27 AM
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originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?


And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.


And it also shows the violation.


I think shooting a Russian plane in Syrian airspace is also a violation.


It just proves Turkey was looking for a chance to down a Russian plane, no matter how small it is. Russia just gave them one.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:28 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

I don't think anyone can risk to start a war on a tiny/small/ridiculous violation of airspace when a fight against terrorism is going on. First, turkey is not the target of the fight and its territory is meshed with syrian airspace. So eventually this type of "airspace violations" could be a very common event.

Actually lot's of countries are violating Syrian airspace and aren't being shot down...

So the point is, why a country (turkey) who claims to be "fighting" terrorism shoots down a Russian airplane? At this point, i think, it's to test Russian commitment and reaction to agression (NATO?) ... Turkey is maybe the dog that is being sent to start a fight? I hope not! For the sake of the world!

edit on 24/11/2015 by voyger2 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:29 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?


And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.


And it also shows the violation.


A violation not worth causing a world war over.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:29 AM
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originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: asen_y2k

That it violated Turkish airspace?


Yes it violated Turkish airspace and was shot while it was inside Syria.


Were the F-16 inside Syrian airspace when they shot the SU24 Down?


The radar track published by Turkey does not show that. Check it out.


Here is a larger Turkish radar image from Oct.



Here is the same radar image today but at a smaller scale.



It looks like the F-16 (the whiteflight path flew right up to the Syrian boarder to engage the SUs.
edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:29 AM
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a reply to: asen_y2k

Is it possible Russia is claiming ground fire because they violated turkish airspace.... again.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 05:30 AM
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originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?


And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.


Lol, they haven't been asked to leave. They have been warned not to enter. They ignored the warnings, as can be seen on the radar data. It was pretty much over at the moment they violated the border.




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