Turkey shot down Russian Jet: reportedly by two F16's

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Xcathdra

It's complicated. The warnings were issued on Guard, but Guard is only required in international airspace. If you have pilots that don't normally monitor Guard suddenly in a situation where they should or are supposed to be, it would be extremely easy to overlook setting a radio to that frequency.

Seems like a huge failure all around. There should be a frequency both sides are monitoring, and that should have been established day 1.

There is the channel is the emergency response channel the Russians already know this along with every other aviator on the planet. If the pilot chose not to monitor it that was his decision. The Soviet union used to restrict access to this for fear their pilots would defect who knows that practice may have been reinstated.

a reply to: dragonridr

Pilots train like they fight. If a pilot flies for 10 years without monitoring the Guard frequency, you can't expect him to suddenly start monitoring it one day. You don't suddenly go against your training.

a reply to: Zaphod58

While it's completely understandable why he did not have it on, if it was decided upon that both parties would monitor it, and then Russia did not, you can't claim I forgot about that channel so the warnings don't count.

If there was no decision to monitor that channel, then both parties need to get their act together.

My fellow Americans it isnt looking good American Russian relations, and when I see what our leaders are saying I really worry about the future. Its like they planned this and are getting ready to go to war. I believe they foolishly think they can win a war against Russia. In a war with Russia nobody wins everyone loses everything.



Check out American triumphalistic response to Turkish "stab in the Russian back"

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Yes Yes we get it. HAIL Putin!

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Yes Yes we get it. HAIL Putin!

Since when did any of this have anything to do with Putin? Did I mention the dude once?

A pilot was shot down, it may have been planned ahead of time by NATO forces and it has zero to do with Putin.

One man doesnt make or break a country, nor can one man be blamed for a countries actions.

If Russia or America goes to war its not the fault of the countries puppet presidents, its the fault of the people who are actually behind the military making the decisions.

If you think Putin or Obama is running the military of our governments I have to tell you to think again. This will continue with or without our elected leaders, its much bigger than that.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I believe they foolishly think they can win a war against Russia. In a war with Russia nobody

Maybe, maybe not. The whole point of M.A.D. Was to keep an equilibrium to ensure peace. If one nation is capable of breaking out and tip the scale in favor of a victory (regardless of the cost) then in the end there is total victory. Even if you are victorious over radioactive soil.

Because some day it can be repurposed and if there are no challengers, than there is no hurry.

originally posted by: Rosinitiate
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I believe they foolishly think they can win a war against Russia. In a war with Russia nobody

Maybe, maybe not. The whole point of M.A.D. Was to keep an equilibrium to ensure peace. If one nation is capable of breaking out and tip the scale in favor of a victory (regardless of the cost) then in the end there is total victory. Even if you are victorious over radioactive soil.

Because some day it can be repurposed and if there are no challengers, than there is no hurry.

How about maybe not. . . . There will be no winners only losers if nuclear war breaks out on a global scale.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Since when did any of this have anything to do with Putin? Did I mention the dude once?

You didn't mention him because you refuse to believe the obvious. Putin is a dictator. Nothing happens in Russia without his approval.

A pilot was shot down, it may have been planned ahead of time by NATO forces and it has zero to do with Putin.

You attribute supernatural powers to NATO. How could NATO arrange for a Russian jet to violate Turkish airspace? On the other hand, Russia has developed a pattern of violating its neighbors' airspace, apparently to test their response.

One man doesnt make or break a country, nor can one man be blamed for a countries actions.

Wrong. In a dictatorship, one man has all the power. Turkey warned Russia to respect its airspace. Putin did not order the military to do so. Perhaps the incident in question was genuinely an accident, but even so, it is Putin who needs to apologize, not Erdogan.

If Russia or America goes to war its not the fault of the countries puppet presidents, its the fault of the people who are actually behind the military making the decisions.

Although the situation in the United States can be complicated because there are so many diverse political elements at play, Russia is quite simple: Vladimir Vladimirovitch is the puppet master. He holds all the strings. The FSB will impose his will on everyone.

If you think Putin or Obama is running the military of our governments I have to tell you to think again. This will continue with or without our elected leaders, its much bigger than that.

Can you be more specific? I have outlined in detail, several times, what I think the endgame here will be. What do you think is going on? What role are the Chinese playing?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Since when did any of this have anything to do with Putin? Did I mention the dude once?

You didn't mention him because you refuse to believe the obvious. Putin is a dictator. Nothing happens in Russia without his approval.

A pilot was shot down, it may have been planned ahead of time by NATO forces and it has zero to do with Putin.

You attribute supernatural powers to NATO. How could NATO arrange for a Russian jet to violate Turkish airspace? On the other hand, Russia has developed a pattern of violating its neighbors' airspace, apparently to test their response.

One man doesnt make or break a country, nor can one man be blamed for a countries actions.

Wrong. In a dictatorship, one man has all the power. Turkey warned Russia to respect its airspace. Putin did not order the military to do so. Perhaps the incident in question was genuinely an accident, but even so, it is Putin who needs to apologize, not Erdogan.

If Russia or America goes to war its not the fault of the countries puppet presidents, its the fault of the people who are actually behind the military making the decisions.

Although the situation in the United States can be complicated because there are so many diverse political elements at play, Russia is quite simple: Vladimir Vladimirovitch is the puppet master. He holds all the strings. The FSB will impose his will on everyone.

If you think Putin or Obama is running the military of our governments I have to tell you to think again. This will continue with or without our elected leaders, its much bigger than that.

Can you be more specific? I have outlined in detail, several times, what I think the endgame here will be. What do you think is going on? What role are the Chinese playing?

Dude none of your points seem to have a point and all comes across as rather uninformed, or wanting to believe something so badly that you seek to make it true.

My point is with or without our elected leaders this is going to keep going on, for example after our current leaders are gone we will still be at odds. It doesnt matter who they say the leaders are, its the backers of big business and military that are driving the decisions.


Not some one dude making all kinds of decisions he isnt qualified to make. What most nations are becoming is a kind of group think, likened to a cloud of ideas, and from those various ideas the best ones are chosen by those in charge. So there could be in no way shape or form one dude who decides everything because no one is capable of running a country just based on thier skill set.

There is also the computer AI element which calculates strategy and only gets better at what it does.

So you asked me what I think the endgame is, thats simple, a new world order. A collapse of the old and the rise of the new. Old alliances will wither and new ones will form. Ultimatly all nations will work together for a better future.


Perhaps only after they are forced to or face mutually assured destruction. We may be witness to global wars in the future or massive natural disasters. If global war or natural disaster on a mass scale does happen and I think it will, war will soon end as the remaining humanity will decide to work towards peace together.

So the end result is world order, international law, and united government. One people, one planet, all will be as one. Our information technology will speed this process up.

As to Chinas role? Its the same as most other countries, they are working towards a united planet, they seem to want to bring order and stability to the chaos of the world.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Dude none of your points seem to have a point and all comes across as rather uninformed, or wanting to believe something so badly that you seek to make it true.

I submit that this is projection on your part. You are quick to believe rumors like the Chinese aircraft carrier heading for Syria, and propose strange theories like NATO somehow setting the Russian jet up without explaining how.

My point is with or without our elected leaders this is going to keep going on, for example after our current leaders are gone we will still be at odds. It doesnt matter who they say the leaders are, its the backers of big business and military that are driving the decisions.

This is partially true. In the West, powerful corporations shape politicians' agendas. In the Levant, in Russia, in much of Latin America, it is the strongman controlling the government who dictates to corporations. That is why it is called "dictatorship."

Not some one dude making all kinds of decisions he isnt qualified to make. What most nations are becoming is a kind of group think, likened to a cloud of ideas, and from those various ideas the best ones are chosen by those in charge. So there could be in no way shape or form one dude who decides everything because no one is capable of running a country just based on thier skill set.

No single person is capable of running a country successfully. Look at Hitler. Look at Mussolini. Look at Saddam. Look at Assad. Look at Putin. In each case the power was concentrated in the hands of a single person, who had the unquestioning loyalty of all beneath him. It is called "the Leader Principle." A charismatic, strong willed individual is set up in the role of Savior.

There is also the computer AI element which calculates strategy and only gets better at what it does.

Except that computers do not make decisions, people do. Humans can use computers to model strategic scenarios, but ultimately it is human wisdom, or folly, that determines the course of events.

So you asked me what I think the endgame is, thats simple, a new world order. A collapse of the old and the rise of the new. Old alliances will wither and new ones will form. Ultimatly all nations will work together for a better future.

Just some friendly advice: advocating for the New World Order will not make you popular on ATS, even if you accompany it with pictures of flowers and rainbows.

Perhaps only after they are forced to or face mutually assured destruction. We may be witness to global wars in the future or massive natural disasters. If global war or natural disaster on a mass scale does happen and I think it will, war will soon end as the remaining humanity will decide to work towards peace together.

In other words, you are actually hoping for some sort of cataclysm that will bring massive death and suffering. Many conspiracy theorists believe that the "real" powers behind the sinister group that controls world events are conspiring to manufacture such events in order to impose a One World Government.

So the end result is world order, international law, and united government. One people, one planet, all will be as one. Our information technology will speed this process up.

We have world order and international law. So long as human beings have difference of opinion, the result of individuality and free will, there will be conflict. The current order has evolved over centuries, not all of its principles are universally accepted, and its laws are not necessarily effectively enforced. On the other hand, things have been getting better. Genocide is now considered unacceptable, for example, and when it happens, the criminals are held responsible.

Note the universal revulsion at Daesh's execution videos. Note how no-one defended the Turkman's machine gunning the helpless pilot. Even his comrades objected.

We do not need "united government" to make the world a better place; on the contrary, it is diversity that allows humanity to find the best path by experiment. Society is subject to the laws of natural selection. The historical record proves that totalitarian states are inflexible and ultimately perish. This is because they lack the diversity to see alternative ways of doing things.

As for "one people," that sounds suspiciously supremacist. What will happen to the people who do not want to fit in to your homogeneous society? What will become of the indigenous tribes, the wanderers, the hippies and free spirits?

As to Chinas role? Its the same as most other countries, they are working towards a united planet, they seem to want to bring order and stability to the chaos of the world.

By building artificial islands in international waters to extend their drilling rights? By engaging in cultural genocide in Tibet and Xianjang?

is a list of banned food imports (today news)

The penalties, which will come into effect from January 1, 2016, mainly cover imports that have incurred by Russia in fruits and vegetables. More specifically, the new data, Moscow is now refusing to import a series of fresh and farm products such as tomatoes, oranges, apples, apricots, cabbage, salt, broccoli, mandarin, cucumbers, pears, apricots, peaches, plums, grapes, strawberries, onions, cloves, chicken and turkey meat. Instead, it has not become clear yet, in the absence of official announcements, whether to impose restrictions and introducing fish, red meat, dairy, nuts and lemon. Turkey, in the first 10 months of 2015, exported about 300,000 tonnes of tomatoes, 255,000 tons of citrus fruit, 20,000 tons of white meat and 36,000 tons of salt. The products are in ... black list of prohibitions reaching a value of $ 764 million, representing 42% of Turkish revenues from exports of fresh fruit and vegetables.

you have to translate with google translator

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Actually his points are spot on and trying to ignore them by attacking the poster doesnt change that.

Another today news for extra bans... Bellow is the juice from our today news (my prev comment contains the agriculture, bellow is the industrial thing).

The Prime Minister of Russia Dmitry Medvedev signed a decree to implement additional economic sanctions against Turkey which will take effect from 1st of January. The additional measures prohibit Turkish companies operating in the hotel industry in the tourism sector and services to customers operating in Russia. The list of measures is also extended to the construction sector, in architectural activities and wood industry.

you have to translate the link with google translator

So the damage is really big, tourism alone is a huge slap. Agriculture alone is nearly a billion of damage and this does not include the unemployment.

Just where is Russia going to get food product from? What with sanctions against Turkey and European sanctions against Russia. We know that increased food prices and scarcities are hitting normal Russians, so sounds a bit like cutting off one's nose. The people suffering from Russian silliness are the Russian people.

a reply to: paraphi

our exports goes to Russia and I think Italy as well. Russia signed more deals with turkey for many products, after eu forced sanctions and Russia forced bans for the entire EU. At this point Russia lifted all sanctions from a couple of countries in the EU, including my country.
The only restriction we got, the products must be transferred directly from my country to Russia, no intermediaries allowed from within EU. Eu have a kind of free goods exchange or something between countries and a country from EU can take our products and give them somewhere else.. This is not allowed.

most of these things we export them also (tomatoes, oranges, apples, apricots, cabbage, salt, broccoli, mandarin, cucumbers, pears, apricots, peaches, plums, grapes, strawberries, onions, cloves, chicken and Hellenic meat.) We also have lots of fish and aphrodisiacs

And Russians filled our hotels in Christmas! more than the 90% of all available beds are filled up.. Its not only Russians in the hotels for holidays, also some of ilegal wealthy imigrants that come with turkish boats, pay for a hotel!!! Its hard to find services right now in our islands (taxi, hotel, etc).

originally posted by: paraphi
Just where is Russia going to get food product from? What with sanctions against Turkey and European sanctions against Russia. We know that increased food prices and scarcities are hitting normal Russians, so sounds a bit like cutting off one's nose. The people suffering from Russian silliness are the Russian people.

Precisely indeed .

Russians have to pay for their Tsar's idiocy ; nothing new , eh ?




That's roughly $ 2 per tomato ; no one talks about the sanctions hurting Turks or Russians more ?

originally posted by: Ploutonas
a reply to: paraphi

our exports goes to Russia and I think Italy as well. Russia signed more deals with turkey for many products, after eu forced sanctions. At this point Russia lifted all sanctions from a couple of countries in the EU, including my country.
The only restriction we got, the products must be transferred directly from my country to Russia, no intermediaries allowed from within EU.

Greeks and Italians will feed the Russians with fresh produce ?

Good luck .

originally posted by: Ploutonas
At this point Russia lifted all sanctions from a couple of countries in the EU, including my country.

Do you have any reliable source that Russia has selectivley lifted their sanctions? Russian sanctions against the EU, as a response to the EU sanctions against Russia (recently extended and deepened) cover food products of all types. Russia is not importing food from the EU, Turkey and Ukraine.

To note that although food prices have increased significantly in Russia, Russia still exports food products, so a bit of a double whammy for the Russian people.

a reply to: paraphi

After edit: I search it and it turns to be false flag (sorry), yes it was a kind of loose measures for us, but since EU decided to renew the sanctions against Russia, they hardened the embargo again, they also include more countries. Its a European level problem. So I have not idea where they get the fruits from... lol Some of them are mediteranean.

You have to translate the bellow link, it also includes a video interview from the russian PM
www.naftemporiki.gr...

PS: But WE DO know that PUTIN drinks wine only from us, I have no idea how he gets it. As for the tourism is another story.