Islam Call To Prayer In America

a reply to: Gryphon66

Yea we all already know about your hatred for religion. The point is does a majority get to basically preach over a loud speaker 5 times a day.

A bell isn't preaching although we already know everyone here basically will do anything or spew anything to upset Christians even be a blatant hypocrite.

Its not like the call to prayer over a loudspeaker is a part of Muslim culture.

How about no loud speaker? good compromise?

originally posted by: lSkrewloosel
a reply to: sirlancelot

I always still hear church bells, why is this any different? If Christians called to pray in the same way as Muslims then that would be happening also.


Xmas etc is about being with family and loved ones. Not about whats on the TV. So who cares if things are censored. ( i have never come across any censorship, but im in the UK)

Have you ever thought that you just notice it more now because of the all the so called terrorism stuff going on? Remember terrorists used to be the IRA, but what Irish men scare people? If the news was positive and everything was fine, but you still heard the calls for prayer, would you still be concerned?

Stay cool friend dont think into things too much

IMO if we change who we are and our norms, traditions, and values out of fear of not being PC then when will it stop? THis year it's Christmas a little, next year it's something else. Meanwhile these folks in reference aren't PC about what they do. They could give a squat about how non beleivers feel about their adhan blasting out. In this case non believers moved away or just sucked it up but what happens when it happens more and more.

So my point is we, the majority are having to cave while the minority get to do whatever they want! Like many things going on around this country it's a double standard Im not happy about. Are you?

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: Gryphon66

The point is does a majority get to basically preach over a loud speaker 5 times a day.

A bell isn't preaching although we already know everyone here basically will do anything or spew anything to upset Christians even be a blatant hypocrite.

Its not like the call to prayer over a loudspeaker is a part of Muslim culture.

How about no loud speaker? good compromise?

A call to prayer isn't preching anymore than a call to prayer is preaching, which by the way is exactly what a church bell ringing is. And church bells are amplified as well. You have no points here.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

I didn't know a bells spoke words. When i hear a bell I suddenly the urge worship Jesus.

So crazy

a reply to: JDmOKI

What does my dislike have to do with the topic?

The law states that any religious group can do what the Adhan does.

What about this doesn't sink in? No special rights have been bestowed on any group.

No "no speaker" is not a compromise. It's just an attempt to shut down a religion you don't like.

Not even an old atheist and religion hater like me wants to do that.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Not everyone shares your definition of pollution. For the record, I find all religions equally obnoxious, but I also believe in the US Constitution.

That's exactly the point. Broadcast speech, heard all over public places, proclaiming one specific religion, as a several-times-a-day thing, isn't something all want to hear.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
It is the Adhan - The Traditional Call to Prayer.

Islamic prayer. Not everyone that is forced to hear it is Muslim. The wording is more of a declaration, too, than a simple, "Hey, come pray now." sort of thing.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
As to the rest ... note the actual wording of the Ordinance as listed above. It is not Ordinance 503 ... that was changed in 2008.130.0055 Provided.

You can see that all religious calls have the same rights in Hamtramck.

I did see the ordinance, though I have also heard that churches are being told they can't ring their bells. If that's the case, that's a clear violation of the ordinance. Even if that isn't the case, broadcast speech isn't the same as a bell. Bells are used for many purposes, and often, church bells are sounded at a certain time, and thus are as much a time-keeping device as anything else. They do not broadcast any particular message. A simple short bell, or horn, or whatever, would be one thing, but a broadcast claiming that only one deity is valid is quite another. I'd find it intrusive if a church was doing what the mosques are doing; broadcasting some specific message into the public areas, and I am Christian. The Muslims wouldn't want to hear that five times a day. Frankly, any church int he area ought to start announcing that it's time to come worship Jesus, God the Son, several times a day, just o balance things out.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
This whole thread is nothing but another Islamic Bash Fest ... and no one, least of all me, is surprised by your attempts to twist and turn and insert opinion in place of facts.

I am not accountable for what anyone else posts, and I haven't read any posts that I would call "bashing", anyway. Disagreeing with something isn't "bashing". Discussing whether public pronouncements of one religion's belief to the public, daily, is right or wrong isn't bashing. If a Christian church was doing what the mosques are doing, can you honestly say you'd defend their right to do so? I asked this already, and so far, not one person has answered.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
I despise organized religion, literally true. I oppose any and all conflation of church and state in the US. I support the Constitution.

Have a problem with that?

/shrug

Yet you defend this? This is the ""state" allowing one religious belief to be broadcast into public areas, five times a day. It's government sanctioned religious recruitment. I don't care what is claimed; stating that only one deity is allowed is pushing that religion. People can do that all day long in conversations with others, on bumper stickers, online, on radio and television programs, and so forth, but blasting it through neighborhoods isn't right.

Why would I have a problem with that? We don't agree on beliefs, but what you do or do not believe is your decision. I don't think you should have to listen to allah being proclaimed multiple times daily, with no way to turn it off. I can't imagine why you'd defend such a practice, given your stated position.

a reply to: sirlancelot

While I don't live in either community, I visit there often enough. To be honest, Ive never even noticed the calls to prayer. I have heard more bass thumping cars than those calls. .

Both sides in both communities have made accommodations that seem to work. At first both sides were unaccomadating then they starting actually talking to each other. Why do you care what other towns do if they are ok with the situation.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

All faiths are given the same options to call their faithful to their practice.

There's no more equitable way to solve the question.

You heard that someone said that there might have been talk that ... Please. The law is clear.

This is the state allowing any faith to call their faithful ... I dnnt have to like any of it to accept that people have freedom of their faith. Neither my like or dislike nor yours has anything to do with it.

originally posted by: scorpio84
Is "Muslim prayer crap" a technical term or are you just an Islamophobe?

If you feel the need to toss out nonsensical labels, I don't feel any obligation to respond to that portion of your reply.

originally posted by: scorpio84
Also, in case you weren't paying attention to the discussion - it is a call to prayer that lasts a rather short amount of time. If you are hearing the actual prayer, I would suggest you stop setting foot inside the mosque if it bothers you that much.

Now you are dancing around the edge of the actual issue. This isn't being done inside the mosque; it's being done out in the streets. These are public areas. As I stated, one shouldn't have to wear headphones to not hear a religion pushed with which they do not agree. I would suggest they keep it in the mosque.

originally posted by: scorpio84
I can't even possibly list the amount of things that annoy me. Can you imagine if we made illegal every single thing that bothered someone else? I doubt anything would be legal. Heck, you reply annoys me. Let's make it illegal! I'm sure you are familiar with the phrase "my rights end where yours begins." The Constitution guarantees life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It does not - for very good reason - guarantee happiness itself. The call to prayer does nothing to take away your constitutional rights and is therefore permissible, whether you like it or not. On the flip side, did you know you would be within your rights to stop whining on the internet and go protest to your local government?

This isn't about what annoys anyone. This is about government sanctioned proselytization. This "call to prayer" is intended to force all to pay attention to what they believe.

The main purpose behind the multiple loud pronouncements of adhan in every mosque is to make available to everyone an easily intelligible summary of Islamic belief. It is intended to bring to the mind of every believer and non-believer the substance of Islamic beliefs, or its spiritual ideology. In modern times, loudspeakers have been installed on minarets for this purpose.

source

The words themselves are a declaration of their belief, not a simple statement to come pray. Broadcast as they are, they are to force people to listen, and when this is allowed by a government, it's against the Constitution. It is government-sponsored religion. That is the issue, and that is what too many here want to ignore. Inside their buildings, it's private. Broadcast through speakers into public areas, it's not. Yes, that is a violation of rights.

originally posted by: scorpio84
Again, it's a call to prayer - sort of like church bells are a call to prayer for Christians. Are churches not allowed to broadcast sermons - or is it just that churches don't do that? Come to think of it - no religion broadcasts its sermons on public speaker.

No churches broadcast declarations into public space that Jesus is God, and Muslims would throw a fit if they did. So would most defending this Muslim business here.

originally posted by: scorpio84
There you go again with your obvious bigotry. The term is "call to prayer" not "this Muslim stuff." More importantly, you are missing the whole message - it isn't about supporting Islam over Christianity - it's about supporting the right of people to freely follow their religion, so long as it does not interfere with the Constitutional rights of others - and i remind you, you don't have the right to not be annoyed.

Nope, that's all yours. Churches don't get to proclaim over loudspeakers that their way is the only way, and yet mosques are allowed. That's a bigoted position, and you defend it.

originally posted by: scorpio84
Not nearly as strong as the ASSumptions.

Watch the language.

originally posted by: scorpio84
Actually, when someone's faith requires blasting a couple minutes of noise into the air to call people to worship, freedom of religion is just that. You know, I don't like traffic - I suppose we should abolish that, too.

Calling someone to worship doesn't require proclaiming that only their deity is allowed. That's what they are actually doing. Pretending it's a call to prayer doesn't change the fact.

originally posted by: scorpio84
Your inability to reason and provide a logical argument leads me to conclude you are:
a). full of yourself
b). extremely bigoted
c). in possession of a low IQ
d). all of the above

Honestly, I'd guess answer choice d in your case.

There are many logical arguments offered, and in return, you have ignored them, and thrown out petty insults. You completely ignore even the most basic TOS in doing so.

a reply to: Gryphon66

The irony (if this is the right word) is that many of those complaining can trace their ancestry to people who fled from Christian persecution. Anyone with ancestry stemming from the British Isles, France, or Germany - which I believe covers the vast majority of the population - would fall under this category. It's a common misconception that this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. It was founded on the deistic principle that God doesn't give a damn what you do, so long as it doesn't interfere with the practices of other people.
The only possible argument against a call to prayer that I could fathom would be if someone has a religion that requires full silence and concentration at the same time the call to prayer is happening - only in that case would one's freedom of religion interfere with another's ability to practice his or her own.
Otherwise, it just boils down to a bunch of whining.

a reply to: scorpio84

Some Christians have been used to their unspoken dominance for decades.

Now that other believers and non believers are slowly getting equitable treatment ...

Many of them are going apoplectic as we see here.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

All faiths are given the same options to call their faithful to their practice.

No, they are not. People are even told they aren't allowed to pray in many public arenas. Plus, as stated before, this is NOT a call to prayer, but a declaration of their beliefs. It's also NOT vital, since they got by for centuries with no loudspeakers. What this is is proselytizing.

Unless you state that you defend a church proclaiming several times a day that Jesus is God, and the only way to heaven, and calling that a "call to prayer", you cannot defend this. Are you willing to make that statement? You have avoided it thus far.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

If you feel the need to toss out nonsensical labels, I don't feel any obligation to respond to that portion of your reply.

It wasn't a label- it was a question. Hence the question mark at the end.

Now you are dancing around the edge of the actual issue. This isn't being done inside the mosque; it's being done out in the streets. These are public areas. As I stated, one shouldn't have to wear headphones to not hear a religion pushed with which they do not agree. I would suggest they keep it in the mosque.

Well, there wouldn't be much of a point in a "call to prayer" if it were done inside the mosque, now would there? If you are saying the sky is a "public area" - okay. I remember when I was a kid being annoyed by the church bells that would always ring (no mosques - at least not then). I suppose, then, that we should outlaw church bells from ringing? If you'd support that, then at least you'd be consistent - otherwise you are just complaining about the call to prayer because you have a problem with Muslims, not with the actual noise. Religion is not being pushed on you or anyone else - unless you speak Arabic and actually understand what is being said? Otherwise, to you, it's just noise. Furthermore, if you want to talk about a problem with religion being pushed on someone, then discuss the Jehovah's Witnesses - not a tradition meant to remind people who already believe to come worship their deity.

This isn't about what annoys anyone. This is about government sanctioned proselytization. This "call to prayer" is intended to force all to pay attention to what they believe

Did it ever occur to you that if they were trying to "proselytize," the call to prayer would be in English (or perhaps Spanish)? I'm guessing you don't know what "proselytize" actually means.

Nope, that's all yours. Churches don't get to proclaim over loudspeakers that their way is the only way, and yet mosques are allowed. That's a bigoted position, and you defend it.

Don't get to or just don't do it? The last I checked, churches use bells to call people to prayer. Perhaps they should only ring the bells inside the church and not allow the noise to escape into the public space which we call "air." Furthermore, you call it "public space" yet want to restrict its use. Hypocritical, don't you think?

Watch the language.

Well, when the shoe fits...

Calling someone to worship doesn't require proclaiming that only their deity is allowed. That's what they are actually doing. Pretending it's a call to prayer doesn't change the fact.

Ah, you do speak Arabic! Actually, you probably just googled what the adhan says. Clearly neither, considering the adhan is a proclamation of faith. It has nothing to do with saying other deities are not allowed. Furthermore, I'd think if you had studied Arabic, you'd have some sort of appreciation for the language - and unless you studied pre-Islamic Arabic, it's a bit difficult to separate language from Islam, which forms a huge part of the culture in the Arabic-speaking world. If you feel your own faith/opinions on God shaken by the adhan, it's a problem with you, not the adhan.

There are many logical arguments offered, and in return, you have ignored them, and thrown out petty insults. You completely ignore even the most basic TOS in doing so.

I have not insulted you once. If a person has an IQ of 40 and you call that person a "retard" it isn't an insult, but rather a statement of fact. Logical arguments? Sorry, but "I don't like it" is not a logical argument why something shouldn't be done - it's just a complaint. Proselytizing is not being done here - if it were, it'd be in the vernacular understood by the majority of people. As for you being "forced" to hear it - as you said, "public space" and the last time I checked, America was a free country -the patriot act notwithstanding.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Unless you state that you defend a church proclaiming several times a day that Jesus is God, and the only way to heaven, and calling that a "call to prayer", you cannot defend this. Are you willing to make that statement? You have avoided it thus far.

I'd defend it. Why? Simple - it's their right to state their beliefs and if their religion requires them to do so over loudspeaker, fine by me. The real question is - in your scenario - would you complain - or is it just a problem if Muslims do it?

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

No, no one has been told they can't pray.

It doesn't matter what you think the Adhan is or isn't.

Why would I make any statement about what Christians can and can't say in their calls to their faithful?

That's none of my business. The Christians can do the same thing in Hamtramck and Dearborn that the Muslims can do or the Wiccans or the Scientologists.

If you have a problem with what the Christians in these places are doing or not doing, take it up with the Christians and leave the Muslims and everyone else alone.

Your personal take on religion is NOT the only acceptable one.

a reply to: sirlancelot
to you it might be call to prayer but to us and every other place it is broadcast it is telling non muslims haha ha in your face we are winning and you can't do jack about it

originally posted by: proteus33
a reply to: sirlancelot
to you it might be call to prayer but to us and every other place it is broadcast it is telling non muslims haha ha in your face we are winning and you can't do jack about it

Thank you for your honesty!

So it's not a matter of religious freedom for American citizens, but simply a continuation of an age old conflict that you feel like you're losing.

Too bad others here can't be that direct.

originally posted by: proteus33
a reply to: sirlancelot
to you it might be call to prayer but to us and every other place it is broadcast it is telling non muslims haha ha in your face we are winning and you can't do jack about it

Honestly, I thought to most of you it would be gibberish. Yes, the adhan is meant to explain the Islamic faith succinctly (proclamation of faith). If you were a Christian in Egypt and had to hear this, I could see where this would bother people. However, if you are like the vast majority of Americans, this is really little more than background noise.

it really doesn't matter if residents of Dearborn or Hamtramck speak perfect Arabic, understand every word of the Adhan, etc. The law in those two cities allow for all religious faiths to broadcast their short (no more than 5 min) calls to worship.

There's nothing that guarantees anyone that we don't have to be exposed at some point to other's religion.

I have to listen to street preachers, see Christian religious messages etc, etc. all the time.

What is appalling is that this truly free expression of religion is being compared to the enforcement and or establishment of Christian rituals and imagery by government agents on government property using government resources at government sponsored events when to two cases are fundamentally and absolutely opposed to each other and frame exactly the different requirements of the First Amendment.

originally posted by: scorpio84

originally posted by: proteus33
a reply to: sirlancelot
to you it might be call to prayer but to us and every other place it is broadcast it is telling non muslims haha ha in your face we are winning and you can't do jack about it

Honestly, I thought to most of you it would be gibberish. Yes, the adhan is meant to explain the Islamic faith succinctly (proclamation of faith). If you were a Christian in Egypt and had to hear this, I could see where this would bother people. However, if you are like the vast majority of Americans, this is really little more than background noise.

The vast majority of Americans are clueless and only really care about keeping their head above water. Only when it hits an American in the face will most even have a clue. Contrary to what Obama says about American and its foundation and Islam we are not a country built on Islam belief. Yes the constitution calls for separation of church and state but the foundation of this country was built around judeo-christian beliefs!

There is nothing wrong with freedom of religion but when you project it out over and over again where non beleivers must hear it. THats when the line is crossed. Non beleivers that live with in ear shot of this mosque can walk away or leave the area it's there home. To those that say "well they can move" thats bs. Under that premise muslims could open mosque all over, blast their adhan, and force the un believers to relocate.