Belgium raises terror threat level to level 4 (highest level) for Brussels

originally posted by: Tyrion79
a reply to: Rocker2013
I would like to respond on the Schengen issue.
This allows free travel of citizins of countries that our part of this treaty and not refugees or anyone outside of the treaty, so I don't think it's a liable security issue to begin with.
If we abandon the Schengen treaty, it would only target our own freedom as citizins of the EU, particularly ones inside of the Schengen treaty and it wouldn't solve anything on account of terrorist threats.

IF the Shengen treaty is altered in any way then the last glimpse of what the EU once was is vanished.

originally posted by: whismermill
a reply to: Tyrion79

unless the target is specifically tied to Brussels. Like the metro. If what Uberus has posted is correct, the specific
Belgians for the most part are respecting the police’s wishes

I agree, however if terrorists want to carry out certain attacks at this moment, it wouldn't be logical on their part, seeing how increased security and empty metro stations would not serve their cause in inflicting as much casualties as possible.
Therefore I'm questioning if the lockdown has any use in preventing attacks, that could be carried out later anyway when things return to normal.

originally posted by: Belgianbloke

originally posted by: Tyrion79
a reply to: Rocker2013
I would like to respond on the Schengen issue.
This allows free travel of citizins of countries that our part of this treaty and not refugees or anyone outside of the treaty, so I don't think it's a liable security issue to begin with.
If we abandon the Schengen treaty, it would only target our own freedom as citizins of the EU, particularly ones inside of the Schengen treaty and it wouldn't solve anything on account of terrorist threats.

IF the Shengen treaty is altered in any way then the least glimpse of what the EU once was is vanished.

Exactly and we wouldn't be any safer for it.

originally posted by: Tyrion79
a reply to: Rocker2013
I personally am not saying to ignore any threats, however it doesn't make sense, why certain areas are in lockdown, while others aren't,

Because you don't have access to any of the intelligence they have access to.
In addition, whether we like it or not, the capital of any nation is always going to have increased security because they need to maintain control.

It's the same in all nations, priority is continuation of government.

There are security measures being taken across all our countries right now, it's not going to be the same as a capital city.

originally posted by: Tyrion79
a reply to: Rocker2013
I would like to respond on the Schengen issue.
This allows free travel of citizins of countries that our part of this treaty and not refugees or anyone outside of the treaty, so I don't think it's a liable security issue to begin with.
If we abandon the Schengen treaty, it would only target our own freedom as citizins of the EU, particularly ones inside of the Schengen treaty and it wouldn't solve anything on account of terrorist threats.

But that's the problem, it IS an issue. Several of these individuals have been able to move freely throughout, coming to and from Syria.

The problem with the Schengen zone is that freedom of movement within it is not met with monitoring of those who are moving. There is still no cross-border method to track individuals deemed to be a threat, no EU-wide intel agency designed to collate and cross reference threats.

Just as I was reading your post I was listening to the BBC security analyst talking about the man arrested in Belgium a couple of weeks ago with a car full of weapons and his satnav set to Paris, and they never told anyone in Paris about him!

For the record, I think the principles of the Schengen zone are excellent, just as I think pretty much everything else about the EU partnership is something we should aspire to, but this was done without enough planning and preparation. This ideal was instituted far too quickly.

We should have the Schengen zone, but we need to first make sure people coming into and going out of it are known about, every one of them. We then need to have an EU wide intelligence collective able to track such threats and warn other members of it that a threat exists.

originally posted by: Belgianbloke
IF the Shengen treaty is altered in any way then the last glimpse of what the EU once was is vanished.

I don't agree.
The principle is right, but the methods are entirely wrong.
The Schengen zone is a great thing to have and it's a vital step in the evolution of Europe, but you cannot have it as just an ideal put into practice, you have to have other systems and methods in place to protect it.

They created this without instituting everything else needed to make it practical and functional.

Like it or not, our elected governments have no choice but to try to keep us safe, If the Schengen zone is not fit for purpose (and it certainly isn't, not without a cooperation of intel and border security around it) then it cannot remain as it is.

I don't think the entire thing should be destroyed, I just know that each nation now has to install border security to protect their citizens, and the Schengen zone needs the adequate security it should have had in the beginning before we simply took down all the borders and naively thought that was enough.

We should keep it, but security needs to be reinforced to make it workable.

originally posted by: Tyrion79

originally posted by: whismermill
a reply to: Tyrion79

unless the target is specifically tied to Brussels. Like the metro. If what Uberus has posted is correct, the specific
Belgians for the most part are respecting the police’s wishes

I agree, however if terrorists want to carry out certain attacks at this moment, it wouldn't be logical on their part, seeing how increased security and empty metro stations would not serve their cause in inflicting as much casualties as possible.
Therefore I'm questioning if the lockdown has any use in preventing attacks, that could be carried out later anyway when things return to normal.

It gives them more time to find potential terrorists, they just did 5 more arrests this morning.
If half of the people arrested say something they can just continue clearing the area of threats, the more the better.
I agree that they would just wait with an attack untill the threatlvl decreases so there are more victims, but in the meanwhile they ARE clearing the streets/houses of more and more terrorsist.
On the other hand I wonder how it's possible that just now they start arresting people left and right like they actually know where to look for. What tipped them?
Maybe that Abdeslam dude gave himself in and is helping the cops in providing all the knowledge he has in return for protection for his family. Who knows..

a reply to: Uberus
Still, I don't think you have to put the entire city in a lockdown to accomplish anything on that scale.
Raids on suspects can be carried out at any time, only streets or surroundings would have to be locked down in order to proceed.
I don't see a reason to do it on a city wide scale as of yet, maybe the authorities will come with an explanation accordingly to give any merit to this, which I'm very interested in at this point.

a reply to: whismermill

It's great to see how the press stayed purposely vague about the ongoing operations in order not to give out clues. And this was also the case on social media. If you look the hashtag #brusselslockdown, you will find mostly lolcats ...

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke
Although I like the purpose intended, is it the only hashtag that could discuss the ongoing events?

a reply to: Tyrion79

Unless you want to disobey or warn specific individuals, why not cope ?
For those who still wish to communicate anonymously there are other means : playstation network (apparently consoles have been seized), tor, darknet, ...

Now the latest trend in the Belgian press is to suggest that the main suspect, who is still on the run, may not only be searched by European polices but also but ISIS supporters who wish to silence the sensitive information he may disclose if he ever get caught alive.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke
I agree, however it's naive to think you could disrupt terrorist's communication by this or by locking down the entire city as in the original post describes.

a reply to: Tyrion79

The city lock down is not about preventing communication it's about restricting their possibility of action.
Expect more operations as all objectives haven’t yet been fulfilled. The overall security level is not going to go down unless progress are made. 5 new arrests have been made after operations in the vicinity of Brussels and Liège this morning :
Source

It's is not a problem imo to have extraordinary tighten security measure as long as it prevents terror actions from happening. If despite those measure an attack can still be performed, some serious questions will be raised.

a reply to: stumason

Actually, no, they have not in Belgium and not in any other member state.
What we witness is that certain areas are in a lockdown, not out of fear but to minimize the possibility of extremists and (chemical) weapons leaving the area.
It should be very easy to understand that if a suspect tries to escape or even opens fire at the police, they will not want a crowd in the streets between the possible suspect and themselves.
Certainly not with the mouse who is still a fugitive and likely wears a bomb vest.

For fear one might look across the atlantic where they want to refuse refugees out of fear.
As if every immigrant or refugee is an extremist, that is fear!

UPDATE : Threat level 4 remains for today and tomorrow.
In regards to the raid last night
" The prosecutor announced they released the other 15 they detained Sunday night. and 2 of the 5 this morning"

a reply to: Belgianbloke

i heard, ffs, schools and metro remain closed. So I need to entertain my kids a second day in a row. It is starting to piss me off, and start to think that our government is incompetent... just 1 guy... seriously

a reply to: whismermill


aye, and that massive raid ended up with nothing. I mean they found no weapons, no explosive and they already released everyone apart from 2 guys.

They even said they are actually more scared for retaliation because the only cough small shrimp last night lol!
Only in Belgium haha.

Economical damage up the wazooooo

a reply to: stumason

I do get what you mean, and to a degree, agree with it. Only to a degree, though. I wouldn't hide out at home, either, but I would avoid certain places, if there was an eminent threat, just to be on the safe side. A big game or concert, or something of that sort, I might skip. Of course, some attacks were in restaurants, and I wouldn't avoid those. I'd go armed, though. Well, would do that, anyway, lol! Just because I can. I'd rather carry and not need it, ever, than not carry and that be the day some thug decided to shoot up the place I was. I know some places, you can't do that, though.

For Belgium, it's sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing. If they didn't take precautions, and people were killed, the people would blame the government. If they take them, and nothing happens, people will blame the government. Either way, they get the blame for what the terrorists do. I heard earlier they had closed schools, and some other places, as a result of the claimed threat. Schools, I could maybe see. Not sure about the rest.

What bothers me, and I am sure you as well, is that people are being told that closed places are to be expected, along ith armed forces in the streets. It's far too close to martial law for my taste. I suspect that is a goal.

a reply to: whismermill

I work in Brussels.
Five years ago I was attacked with a knife by an immigrant who asked me a cigarette. But I don’t smoke. I nearly lost my life. I wrote a letter to the most popular paper about the insecurity in Brussels. Not published. I wrote another letter, a very polite one this time. Not published.
It was a reaction concerning an article about how secure Brussels is.
Positive reactions and stupid reactions were published by dozens but mine was not published.
What is the media doing? Is this freedom of speech? (I asked myself.)
I think Brussels is not a save city. The authorities have closed their eyes about the insecurity for years. I heard (I’m not sure) there are ghetto’s police doesn’t even dares to enter.
A few years ago I saw a tv program about the central information service for terrorism: It gave me a very very sad feeling. There seemed to be such a lack of professionalism.
But now Brussels have a lot of arrears. There is one man on the run. A very recognizable one. He has nothing to lose. He lost his brother and friends in Paris and has vowed to take revenge in Brussels.
If they don’t find him, he will wait until Christmas I fear. Life must go on and there will be gatherings of thousands of people again.
I’ m not very comfortable here because every day I have to take the train in the centre of Brussels.
To be honest: I am scared. And that only for one man. Unbelievable but true.

a reply to: zandra
I'm sorry to hear this has happened to you, however what you described can be said of any major city in the world, not just Brussels.
Years ago, I was attacked and robbed by three men on the streets of Rotterdam, ironically also first asking for a cigarette, which I even gave because I do smoke and afterwards asking me for my wallet.
Naturally I refused to part with that, I even mocked them for asking and they immediately jumped me, fighting.
I managed to hit one of them back a couple of times, however against three, you don't stand a chance and they had the advantage of surprise also at that time.
Afterwards I ran after them for a couple of blocks, my head still bleeding from hitting a brick wall while fighting, but couldn't catch anyone unfortunately.
# happens and I've never been afraid after that on the streets, only more cautious.
Bad people can be encountered everywhere, it's a fact of life and if you remain afraid because of this, then you only make it harder on yourself.
Be safe and I hope hope things will return to normal soon in Brussels.