Transgender woman Vicky Thompson, 21, found dead in all male prison.

The moral of the story is a particular minority wants special treatments for criminals of their group because special people deserve better, especially when they are criminals. The ONLY thing to be considered here is this man committed a crime. End of story. This young man could not handle the consequences of his actions, even though he was given a chance to behave, and so he took his own life.

Too bad. People suicide in prison EVERY DAY! In fact probably at least a dozen other people in US prisons suicided that day, and not a single @#$% was given. Some people just think they can be a spoiled princess all the way into the cage of animals. Ill say it again, when you go to prison, you either drive the car, or end up the passenger. It is that simple. This kid did not know how to drive the car, and he could not handle being the passenger. So he opted to jump out at 120mph on the highway.
(the end of the paragraph is metaphorical)

a reply to: Freija

Why the hang up with semantics. If you wear something to disguise your appearance is it not just that a? disguise, costume or pretend? See you avoid simple logic and are trying to say that if someone does not agree it is an "argument" . You speak about the emotions of others but you act all indignant when people don't agree and project that they are angry or full of hate. All you are doing is trying to appeal to emotion because that is the only way to shame people into accepting your view because when logic or facts are used the narrative of the transsexual pariahs seems to fall apart.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
Why the hang up with semantics. If you wear something to disguise your appearance is it not just that a? disguise, costume or pretend? See you avoid simple logic and are trying to say that if someone does not agree it is an "argument"

Tough crowd!

I am not the one that used the word argument. I would really like to see thoughtful back and forth discussion of this subject but it doesn't appear like anyone is interested in doing that? People keep saying the same thing over and over and seem firmly against considering another point of view or demonstrate any desire to gain awareness or understanding into these things beyond their entrenched beliefs. I dunno, I thought ATS was about being open minded and learning about things?

You speak about the emotions of others but you act all indignant when people don't agree and project that they are angry or full of hate. All you are doing is trying to appeal to emotion because that is the only way to shame people into accepting your view because when logic or facts are used the narrative of the transsexual pariahs seems to fall apart.

Indignant? Me? I have tried to be willing and open to discuss these matters as an adult, haven't called anyone ignorant, bigoted or any of that but when I do see attitudes that lack compassion for our fellow human beings, whether you like them or not, it is distressing and quite frankly is a little bit shameful and embarrassing.

As far as facts go, what kind of facts are you talking about? Seems the DSM-5 isn't good enough because the wording was changed for political reasons? Go back to the old definition if you want - GID or Gender Identity Disorder. It's no skin off my back but it doesn't do a dang thing to mean transgender & transsexual people are any different than they are or were. The APA (American Psychiatric Assn.) "facts" nor any of the hundred research studies I posted count in your book, I guess? Where's all those "facts" beyond something you learned in high school biology to support your position which to me just seems a strong dislike or misinformation toward or about transgender people.

I don't give a damn if you don't like trans* people just as I couldn't care less if you dislike homosexuals or different races or religions or different cultures. You and several others have certainly been vocal about it and claim facts are on your side but those "facts" you seem to be so fond of are as selective and cherry-picked as you claim those that understand and support trans problems are and your tactics certainly don't seem any more noble. As far as bringing "logic" into a discussion, that's pretty damn subjective especially when talking about something that stems from emotion and the heart and soul. It is like trying to talk about love or attraction with logic and unless you're Spock, logic isn't always applicable to every situation.

I am not a transgender activist or spokesperson. In fact, I have alienated or pissed off most of the transgender people that post here at one time or another but I am aware, understanding and knowledgeable of their issues and problems and admittedly, I do get a little irked when I see misconceptions and hurtful things being said against people that, like it or not, are just as human as you are, have feelings like you do and want the same things out of life that most "normal" people do.

Back to work for me now. Will check in as I can (if anybody cares).

a reply to: AmericanRealist

Does it make you feel better about yourself to purposely use the wrong pronouns? i mean, it must make you feel like a better person to degrade a Dead woman

a reply to: Freija

While I have opinions about portions of this topic that aren't likely to change, I'm not opposed to discussion. On the following...I'm unbending:

1. You can't change the sex your were born. A male is always a male...for example.
2. Some in the gay, lesbian, trans, etc. community often act like they deserve special treatment.
3. Some in the gay community say "stay out of my business" but then turn around and express "their business" to the public.

But besides those few items...I have no problem with gay, lesbian or trans individuals. They are welcome to do as they please, live their lives, work where they wish and deserve to be treated equally and fairly as far as I'm concerned. At the same time, I think it is fair to say that some of the gay community are on the fringe and go beyond asking for fair or equal treatment and instead look to be treated "special".

On my comments about your posting corrections to HE and/or SHE...I just found that kind of rude. If I decide to refer to people based upon their birth sex (and no it wasn't me you were correcting), I don't need to be corrected. Your opinion of what to call someone who has a "sex change" is up to you. What I call them (HE or SHE) is up to me. You don't need to dictate to others what words they have to use. Again...its just rude.

It just irked me and reminded me of the "stop calling us colored...call us black", "stop calling us black...call us African-american", etc. crap.

But besides that...I have no gripe with you.

PS: For example...see the post directly above mine from Darth_Prime. The "wrong" pronouns? That is an opinion being stated as a fact. It wasn't needed and will never lead to a conversation...just an argument.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

YOU: Hi, I'm WeAreAWAKE, what's your name?

BOB: Hi, WeAreAWAKE, I'm Bob.

YOU: Oh, is that the name you were born with?

BOB: Uh, no. My birth name was Robert but I go by Bob.

YOU: Ok, Robert. I see.

BOB: Please don't call me Robert; my name is Bob.

YOU: No thanks, I will call you Robert. You were born Robert and, even though I know you prefer Bob, no legal changes to your documents or name will ever make you "Bob". I will always call you Robert.

BOB: Wow, WeAreAWAKE... that's pretty rude.

YOU: I prefer to go by W.A.A., by the way.

BOB: Ok, W.A.A.

YOU: Thanks, Robert!

BOB: ...

a reply to: Darth_Prime

It makes me feel honest to use the CORRECT pronouns that describe the unhealty individual in question. No amount of you trying to shame me or others will ever get us to adapt 1984's double speak because someone a minority group wishes to re-write the truth of the world.

Calling this man a woman is an insult to real woman all over the earth, and I am married to a real woman who birthed 4 children naturally, nurtures them, breastfed them and has a real connection to the lives that grew within them. Stop crying for criminals dude. Noone esle who is not already mentally ill or cow toeing to the "agenda" is shedding any tears.

The world is better off.

originally posted by: AmericanRealist
Calling this man a woman is an insult to real woman all over the earth, and I am married to a real woman who birthed 4 children naturally, nurtures them, breastfed them and has a real connection to the lives that grew within them.

Just curious, do you think women who are infertile are less women than those who can then, wondering if that is your benchmark as you make such a deal of it?

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: AmericanRealist
Calling this man a woman is an insult to real woman all over the earth, and I am married to a real woman who birthed 4 children naturally, nurtures them, breastfed them and has a real connection to the lives that grew within them.

Just curious, do you think women who are infertile are less women than those who can then, wondering if that is your benchmark as you make such a deal of it?

Prepare for:

Step One: Backtrack previous refuted statement.
Step Two: Move goal posts.
Step Three: Act persecuted because ignorant statement was called out.
Step Four: Continue to not be interested in learning anything official about the subject matter.
Step Five: Post another uninformed and opinionated statement. The simpler the better. Make sure it is disrespectful.
Step Six: Repeat.

a reply to: Abysha

OK then...from now on you are to refer to me as SATANIC GOAT NUMBER 48. If you don't, you're an evil, hateful, bigot.

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
a reply to: Abysha

OK then...from now on you are to refer to me as SATANIC GOAT NUMBER 48. If you don't, you're an evil, hateful, bigot.

I'd happily call you that if it was important to you.
Privately I would consider it odd but it wouldn't harm me so if that is how you wish to be addressed, why would I not?
...not the best argument you could have come up with was it lad?

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
a reply to: Abysha

OK then...from now on you are to refer to me as SATANIC GOAT NUMBER 48. If you don't, you're an evil, hateful, bigot.

Why wouldn't I oblige to that, Satanic Goat Number 48? If you told me that's what you go by, that's what I would call you.

Because I have respect for you (the default respect I afford everybody) enough to call you what you want to be called.

a reply to: Abysha

COOL!

a reply to: grainofsand

Say it!

Too busy with work to really reply but poked my head in for a sec...

No, WeAreAWAKE. I refuse to call you SATANIC GOAT NUMBER 48. You started as WeAreAWAKE. Your chromosomes (avatar) says WeAreAWAKE therefor you are WeAreAWAKE. You are only pretending and I'm not buying into it.

I don't care how confused you are or what a special little snowflake you may be, that's just not right and I won't do it. When the farmer rounds you up and won't put you with the other satanic goats, maybe you'll just die and rid society of your kind.

The point has already been made but I couldn't resist

Not meant to be malicious and if I don't end up working all night, will provide a proper and not snarky reply to your numbered talking points. I hope we can have a productive discussion?

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
a reply to: grainofsand
Say it!

I'm sorry Satanic Goat Number 48, I'm not sure exactly what you mean with "Say it!", say what?

____________________________________________

a reply to: Freija
Lol

a reply to: AmericanRealist

I don't need to shame you, you show the person you are without my help, thanks

a reply to: Darth_Prime

How are they the wrong pronouns? If a cop asked you to describe a transsexual suspect would you say it was a woman who ran off "that way" or would you say it was a man dressed as a woman who ran "that way"? I feel bad for the poor lady who gets fingered as the wrong suspect in your world.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Revolution9

This is bloody awful.

I believe that the government failed in a duty of care here, that the justice system had ample forewarning to prevent this death, and did nothing, absolutely nothing to prevent it. I find myself wondering how, with equality law so broad and powerful as we have in this country, it can ever have come to pass that this woman was placed in a men's prison, regardless of what equipment she had in her undergarments at the time of her incarceration.

This is possibly the most staggering case of malicious misgendering I have ever come across, and that it was committed by a government department smacks of a double standard. If the man in the street were to mistreat, or even be ACCUSED of mistreating a person because of their transgender status, it would be considered a hate crime, a transphobic incident. But when government does it, it is a matter of regulation? I do not consider their reasoning acceptable, nor do I believe that it conforms to the law.

This is a matter of institutional intolerance, and must be addressed post haste. This must never happen again.

Well said.

I know a story where a Judge in Alabama sent a TRANS woman with beautiful long hair to jail for 91 days (because 90 days is jail, but over that means going to prison). This was done to humiliate, knowing that one day in prison would mean she would be forced to have all her hair cut off. Her crime was writing a bad check. The real crime was what the Judge did to punish her will a cruel act of unnecessary humiliation.

In the America Indian culture, to publicly humiliate someone is akin to murder. In a Native American Law Book before 1776 to 1903 there were written laws about public humiliation. Under the section that defines murder and what is justifiable homicide it gives an example of what is not justifiable homicide, and therefore murder: "When outrageous physical and verbal abuse and public humiliation of a Cheyenne results in the suicide of the humiliated Cheyenne."

In short, if you humiliate someone to the point the kill themselves, you are guilty of murder. A Jewish Rabbi once discribe this as the soul flying away: "First the face first turns red, and then turns white, because due to the magnitude of the shame, his ‘soul flies away’, as if it wanted to leave the body...once the blood returns to its source, the face turns white, like someone who has died."

The question, then, becomes the evaluation of this comparison between homicide and humiliation. If humiliation is indeed equal to murder in the absolute sense of the word, it is readily understandable that it must be avoided even at the cost of death, as is clearly established as the rule for murder. The Talmud challenges one who would slay another to save himself: “How do you reason that your blood is redder than his?” If humiliation is truly shedding of blood, one who wishes to do so to preserve his own life must answer to the same objection.

As a cop. They will tell you. Public humiliation is a leading motive for murder. OJ Simpson' son, from his first marriage, felt humiliation when he killed Nicole Brown Simpson. He had motive and opportunity for the crime, but it was his father who took the fall. Read the book that tells that story here: www.amazon.com...

Sorry but no sympathy felt here. I myself am transgender, bigender to be specific, but its your xx or xy chromosomes that specify your sex. It doesn't matter what genitalia you possess, you either have two x or an x and y chromosome and you can not change that. "She" was imprisoned where "she" belonged. "Her" gender identity may be female but you cannot change your sex despite what you have downstairs. Trans man cannot get someone pregnant and a trans women cannot become pregnant.