Transgender woman Vicky Thompson, 21, found dead in all male prison.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Do you know the definition of REALITY?

REALITY - the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them. So how does reality come into play in this scenario?

The REALITY is that this GUY has a PENIS and TESTICLES and is biologically a MALE.

With me calling him a “he”, I am simply identifying with the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to you. You prefer an idealistic or notional idea that has no place in reality.

You have a problem with people identifying with reality here. And then you have the nerve to call them “disgusting, intolerant” and that those people who do identify with reality are simply being derogatory.

Should a male be sent to a female prison just because “it’s the right thing to do?” That is a very weak argument.

Like I said, a gay person who is 140 pounds is no more vulnerable than a 140 pound male who identifies himself as female. In fact a 140 pound straight male is no different. The fact is, in a prison, if someone is going to rape you; they will. Just because you prefer to wear make-up isn’t going to make much difference.

What we should really be talking about is making prisons safer for EVERYBODY. Eliminating rape in prisons alltogether. That in my view is the right thing to do, rather than blurring the lines of reality.

originally posted by: jheated5
So when you go to prison, you go in as the gender you were assigned at birth.... What is the problem here? Sorry the laws are just fine. Prison is not a vacation and you are not a special snowflake when you are there.

Not assigned, born as. XY means youre a guy, no assignment needed.

originally posted by: Debunkology
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Do you know the definition of REALITY?

REALITY - the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them. So how does reality come into play in this scenario?

The REALITY is that this GUY has a PENIS and TESTICLES and is biologically a MALE.

The REALITY is that things aren't that simple anymore. Modern medicine says that gender isn't defined like that anymore. REALITY says that you are now wrong. Get with the times.

With me calling him a “he”, I am simply identifying with the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to you. You prefer an idealistic or notional idea that has no place in reality.

No you are demanding to be offensive and backing it up with 1950's science.

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe

originally posted by: TsukiLunar
Yes, it thought it was a snowflake i guess. As a conservative i freaking hate snowflakes.

Do you ever get tired of doing that? The sarcasm I mean... Does it not ever get old or do the stars make it worthwhile?

A life is lost here regardless of what gender they identified with and their death is being used to push an agenda on a message board.

As a conservative myself, I find that really sad and really wrong.

You admonished a person for satirically acting bigoted and insensitive yet I don't see any criticism towards the very genuine hate from the members.

This woman died in a prison where nearly any health official would agree that there is a high probability of death for her and people on here blame her for it. Crimes deserve equal punishment, not intentionally cruel and unusual retribution.

But yeah, let's get preachy over somebody's sarcasm that points out the stupidity instead of the stupidity itself.

Trans people going to prison is a tricky situation. It is a scenario where a person's life or death can literally be determined by whether or not they completed the paperwork for legal recognition. Paperwork... let that sink in. So this isn't something that is clear cut and easy to solve. But what we don't need is the idiotic statements of minimizing a tragic death that could have been prevented. I've seen more sympathy for terrorists on ATS than I've seen for this woman.

Send her to the loony bin instead.
Problem solved.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
The REALITY is that things aren't that simple anymore. Modern medicine says that gender isn't defined like that anymore. REALITY says that you are now wrong. Get with the times.

No you are demanding to be offensive and backing it up with 1950's science.

I’m I being offensive by calling a male a “he”? Sorry to burst your “progressive” bubble. But modern medicine still defines a male with testicles and penis as a male. This is not 1950s science. This is still true today, so it looks like it’s you that needs to “get with the times”.

a reply to: Debunkology

Uh Huh... Here are all the ways that modern medicine defines gender. Now before you try to snipe me by saying that they listed the version determined by your reproduction organs, I'm going to point out that that is only ONE way that gender is defined these days.

gender [jen´der]
sex (def. 1); see also gender identity and gender role.
gender identity disorder a disturbance of gender identification in which the affected person has an overwhelming desire to change their anatomic sex or insists that they are of the opposite sex, with persistent discomfort about their assigned sex or about filling its usual gender role; the disorder may become apparent in childhood or not appear until adolescence or adulthood. Individuals may attempt to live as members of the opposite sex and may seek hormonal and surgical treatment to bring their anatomy into conformity with their belief (see transsexualism). It is not the same as transvestism.
Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health, Seventh Edition. © 2003 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.

gen·der (jen'dĕr),
Category to which an individual is assigned by self or others, on the basis of sex. Compare: sex, gender role.
Farlex Partner Medical Dictionary © Farlex 2012
gender /gen·der/ (jen´der) sex; the category to which an individual is assigned on the basis of sex.
Dorland's Medical Dictionary for Health Consumers. © 2007 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.

gen·der (jĕn′dər)
n.
1. The sex of an individual, male or female, based on reproductive anatomy.
2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
The American Heritage® Medical Dictionary Copyright © 2007, 2004 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

gender
[jen′dər]
Etymology: L, genus, kind
1 the classification of the sex of a person into male, female, or ambivalent.
2 the specific sex of a person. See also sex.
Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 9th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.
gender The sex with which a person identifies him- or herself.
Segen's Medical Dictionary. © 2012 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.
gender Sex; one's personal, social, and legal status as ♂ or ♀, based on body and behavior, not on genital and/or erotic criteria. See Gender-identity/role.
McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine. © 2002 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

gen·der (jen'dĕr)
Category to which a person is assigned by self or others, on the basis of sex.
Compare: sex, gender role
[fr. L. genus, kind]
Medical Dictionary for the Health Professions and Nursing © Farlex 2012

gender (1) in general use, synonym for biological sex; (2) the socially constructed views of feminine and masculine behaviour within individual cultural groups. gender identity a person's sense of their biological sex. gender role the set of behaviours, attitudes and other characteristics normally associated with masculinity and femininity within a given culture or social group; for example, certain sports are stereotypically viewed as reflecting a masculine role (e.g. basketball) whereas others reflect a feminine role (e.g. netball).
Dictionary of Sport and Exercise Science and Medicine by Churchill Livingstone © 2008 Elsevier Limited. All rights reserved.

gender anatomical sex of the individual
Illustrated Dictionary of Podiatry and Foot Science by Jean Mooney © 2009 Elsevier Limited. All rights reserved.
gender
sex; the category to which an individual is assigned on the basis of sex.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

To me it doesn't matter how you or anyone else wants to define it to fit your feelings.

Nature and biology has already defined it, the moment you manifested your combination of chromosomes.

You completley ignored the man who thinks he's a dog comments as a non issue because you don't want to admit that it's the same mental processes that are making that guy want to be a dog and making a man want to be a woman. If you accommodate the transgendered woman than you also must accommodate the dog-man. You know how ridiculous it would be to put the dog man down for biting someone so you choose to not engage (deflect) instead of pointing out the hypocrisy in the definition of gender you've chosen to believe.

It is not hard to just call the He a She if that is what She would prefer, no argument there, but there's something that feels wrong about saying 2+2=5 just because "Joe Dude" is offended by the idea of 2+2=4

I'm sure I'm just ignorant though. A relic who's opinions aren't up to modern scientific standards so they don't really matter right?

originally posted by: Bennyzilla
a reply to: Krazysh0t

To me it doesn't matter how you or anyone else wants to define it to fit your feelings.

Nature and biology has already defined it, the moment you manifested your combination of chromosomes.

But I just proved that modern biology has changed its definitions around...

You completley ignored the man who thinks he's a dog comments as a non issue because you don't want to admit that it's the same mental processes that are making that guy want to be a dog and making a man want to be a woman. If you accommodate the transgendered woman than you also must accommodate the dog-man. You know how ridiculous it would be to put the dog man down for biting someone so you choose to not engage (deflect) instead of pointing out the hypocrisy in the definition of gender you've chosen to believe.

I didn't completely ignore that conversation. I clearly responded to it and replied with how I thought. If my answer wasn't satisfactory to you, then too bad.

It is not hard to just call the He a She if that is what She would prefer, no argument there, but there's something that feels wrong about saying 2+2=5 just because "Joe Dude" is offended by the idea of 2+2=4

Gender isn't so clearly defined as mathematics is. Your analogy fails.

I'm sure I'm just ignorant though. A relic who's opinions aren't up to modern scientific standards so they don't really matter right?

You said it. Not me.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Science today would still consider this person (MALE), if this person had committed a crime and there was DNA evidence. The DNA evidence would come back identifying the person as (MALE). The external sexual characteristics of this person is (MALE). The legal status of this person was (MALE).

originally posted by: Debunkology
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Science today would still consider this person (MALE), if this person had committed a crime and there was DNA evidence. The DNA evidence would come back identifying the person as (MALE). The external sexual characteristics of this person is (MALE). The legal status of this person was (MALE).

Depends on which branch of science you ask. If you only took a genetics test then yes. Or you could ask a psychiatrist and he'd disagree. Like I said, things aren't so simple. As far as the legal status of the person? That's irrelevant. That is determined by a piece of paper. If you are talking scientific, why even list that?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

So if the Dog-Person can just change his mind can transgendered people just simply change their minds as well? I was under the impression it was not a choice one made but a result of being biologically one gender while your brain interprets you as another.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
It's hard to sympathize with someone who used suicide as a tool to get her way, but the way the posters in this thread are going out of their way to be intolerant with the "he/she, it, and other derogatory ways to refer to her" is rather disgusting. Why are people SO hung up on calling people a gender they don't want to be called? Does it really hurt you to call a transgender woman a woman instead of man?

You know, for mentally stable people, it really doesn't bother them to be called by the wrong gender. You can misgender me all you want. Go ahead and pick one, I really don't care. I highly doubt that its going to 'offend' me or cause me to self-harm, or worse yet start a protest under the pretense of my feelings being hurt

Krazysh0t

This person was born male, and died male and whose legal status was male. That’s taking into question biologically (science) and law. The other science? Psychologically? This guy would be identified as “a male with gender dysphoria”. And males with gender dysphoria do not exactly have “female” brains either.

The inmates in the prison made fun of this person for wearing female clothes. So, even talking about how OTHERS would identify this person….(MALE).

Your argument is weak.

originally posted by: Bennyzilla
a reply to: Krazysh0t

So if the Dog-Person can just change his mind can transgendered people just simply change their minds as well? I was under the impression it was not a choice one made but a result of being biologically one gender while your brain interprets you as another.

Like I told the other person, this situation that you are trying to entrap me with isn't a real world situation. First there is all of one guy on the internet who does this. Second, he's never been arrested. Third, if he HAD been arrested, there are no complaints from him asking for preferential treatment. So all of this conversation is a moot point.

originally posted by: Chickensalad

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
It's hard to sympathize with someone who used suicide as a tool to get her way, but the way the posters in this thread are going out of their way to be intolerant with the "he/she, it, and other derogatory ways to refer to her" is rather disgusting. Why are people SO hung up on calling people a gender they don't want to be called? Does it really hurt you to call a transgender woman a woman instead of man?

You know, for mentally stable people, it really doesn't bother them to be called by the wrong gender. You can misgender me all you want. Go ahead and pick one, I really don't care. I highly doubt that its going to 'offend' me or cause me to self-harm, or worse yet start a protest under the pretense of my feelings being hurt

Great I'm glad that you are able to do this. So what makes you think that everyone is able to do such things?

a reply to: Debunkology

My argument aligns with modern science regardless of what the other inmates did to this person. In any case, if my argument is weak, take it up with science. You can't just ignore parts of if you find inconvenient.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

It's a thought experiment. It's relevant because it follows along the same lines as the transgendered issues.

I'm honestly not trying to entrap you, I just want to know how far your ideology and beliefs extend (As from what I've seen here you are definitely a figurehead in the defense of transgender people on ATS and as such very generally represent the ideologies of that group, you may disagree with that sentiment but the best leaders often don't accept the role). At what point do you reach the point that people who don't want to believe transgendered people deserve special treatment are at? Where does ones personal feelings about their existence become fantasy and not reality?

I'm unclear on how, if transgender is not a choice one makes, you could not also extend your support to Dog-Person as well.

Also, I think this: "Depends on which branch of science you ask.", is a very telling statement. For every scientist who says gender is fluid, there is one who will say it is not.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Debunkology

My argument aligns with modern science regardless of what the other inmates did to this person. In any case, if my argument is weak, take it up with science. You can't just ignore parts of if you find inconvenient.

No it doesn’t though.

Like I said. Modern science defines this person as a “male with gender dysphoria” (a condition). And modern science biologically defines this person as male because this person was born male, and died male with external sexual organs of a male person. Legally speaking this person was also male, and I’ll repeat the inmates identified this person as male.

The only person who identified this person as female, was himself!

Today is the Transgender Day of Remembrance.

Can't people take one day out of their life to stop and genuinely think about this for once rather than taking some poor person's death as an opportunity to spout off their rhetoric and unscientific nonsense.

Regardless how you feel about it, transgender people aren't the way they are by choice. Why would anyone WANT this? The fact remains though that transgender people do exist and for many, their lives are a living hell. Even if you think transfolk are all perverted, confused, mentally ill deviants, can't you recognize that many do have problems and show a little compassion?

It makes me sad and embarrassed to read some of the comments here. Can't we all try to be a little bit better?