Transgender woman Vicky Thompson, 21, found dead in all male prison.

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
First of all...nice to finally talk with you on-topic and (as I'm sure you can see) you are one of the few talk-to-able people around here. So...compliments.

Same to you. Even though we don't see eye-to-eye, it is refreshing to be able to actually carry on a discussion

But I do have to clarify. While you read my post perfectly, I still and probably will always believe that there is a correlation between the insanity of "I'm an alien" and "I'm a woman in a male's body". I say correlation because I don't pretend to completely understand something I'm not. But...there doesn't seem to be a provable difference between the two.

Your alien and your man/woman both believe in what they feel. They both (often) have no proven mental disorder other than them believing they are something they don't appear to be. Until or unless some scientist finds a "gay gene" (oh...and I realize I used homophobia incorrectly...I just can't type all those strung out gender descriptions) this will always be the case. Unless I am missing something, there is no scientific difference between our alien and man/woman. Without that...the default labeling is a mental issue. But again...whether a mental issue or a gene...it can probably be adjusted. I would have said cured but that can be taken as offensive.

Well, as far as we know at this point, aliens don't exist so some degree of "insanity" probably would be involved in someone claiming to be one. Men and women do exist, are part of the same species (although it doesn't seem like it sometimes!) and are fundamentally the same bipedal bags of meat, have the same physical and emotional needs and are really much more alike than they are different. We have complicated psyches, feelings, higher thinking, language, culture and spirituality. We are conscious, sentient and have an individual sense of self while still part of the broader human collective and experience.

Hang with me for a little sidebar. Intersex conditions or Disorders of Sexual Development (DSD), such as ambiguous or malformed genitalia occur in human populations at about the same rate as autism. Some intersex conditions aren't discovered until puberty or even later. All embryos start off as female. If that happy Y chromosome that people are so fond of is present, it has its one and only big moment around the second month of fetal growth and tells the little pea to grow testicles that begin producing testosterone, the chemical that affects of rest of fetal development. Under the influence of testosterone, sexual differentiation of the human brain doesn't occur until the second half of pregnancy. In the absence of testosterone, a fetus develops as female. Things can go wrong here. Testosterone levels can be off, androgen receptors in the body can fail or only partially work and a whole crapton of things can go wonky. If it helps wrap your head around the woman in a man's body trope perhaps thinking of this as a partially intersex condition can provide one avenue for your understanding?

Do all transgender or transsexual people have clearly identifiable sexually dimorphic brain structures? No, but research has shown that many do and others have atypical differences plus no particular part of the brain has been identified as being responsible for a person's gender identity or sexual orientation.

When we are born, a doctor or midwife or somebody looks at a baby between the legs and says "It's a boy" or "It's a girl". This is our assigned sex that hopefully isn't ambiguous, not our gender. A child's awareness of gender differences usually begins around age 3 and their own sense of being one gender or the other usually solidifies around 4-5.

Many will argue that gender is purely a social construct or product of environment and the other side of that coin is that our brains are predisposed to be one or the other by biology or prenatal hormonal influences which studies have shown to be largely the case. Regardless, gender can develop and one's sense of it firmly and irrevocably established independent of anatomical sex.

Back to the intersex thing for a minute. Traditionally, doctors faced with ambiguous genitalia would make a best guess and surgical corrections would be performed right away so an infant could be called a boy or a girl, at least by observation. What has happened though is that intersex people have grown up and turned out to be/feel opposite of the surgical corrections that were performed. There is a huge cry going out to stop these surgical interventions until a person is cognizant enough to know what gender they feel they are. Again, evidence that anatomy is not necessarily tied to a person's gender or their sense of self as being one or the other.

As in your most recent post and your previous one with numbered points, many of the things that seem to bother you are political or sociological issues. Laws, bathrooms, jails, getting "in your face" and so on are what really appear to be the problems you have rather than the people themselves.

"Birds of a feather flock together". Communities are formed and bonds are forged between the like minded especially among disenfranchised groups that have experienced discrimination or misunderstanding. People hate it when the struggle for LGBTQxyz+ rights are compared to the civil rights movement, the women's emancipation movement and so on but the analogy is valid. Would any of these movements have been successful without some flag waving, awareness and getting in people's faces and causing a stink about their issues? Probably not and you're probably going to continue to see this from LGBT communities until their issues are met. Strides have been made and society hasn't collapsed.

I don't want this discussion to be about me but as far as me personally just so you know where I'm coming from, I am not aligned with nor part of the LGBTQ+ community although I am a supporter and ally and do feel a remote sense of kinship with many. I've had some great fun friendships with gay guys, lesbians in my closest family and have met maybe 5 trans people in my entire life. ATS is the only platform where I've ever spoken of or involved myself in trans* related topics but I have done a lot of reading.

I am a 61 year old white cisnormative binary predominantly heterosexual woman (because my vagina tells me so - sigh), a Pastafarian agnostic and politically somewhere in the middle leaning left. Boy, that's a mouthful but labels and identity seem to be important here? I am open-minded and have a great deal of compassion and empathy for trans* people and their problems, issues and politics (of which I'm not all completely on-board with) and did have a small run of my own gender expression issues as a child so fully appreciate and understand the concept and feelings of separation between gender and sex. I would like people to understand these things better and why I've spent so much time writing all this. If using starred posts is any indication, I'm falling well short of my goal. Continuing this dialog, that while not meant to be, will probably be considered "in your face" or maybe even beating a dead horse but is the only thing I can think to do. Probably a completely pointless endeavor but something I still feel important as part of helping to "deny ignorance" in these matters.

a reply to: Freija

Well...you sure destroyed THAT fantasy. Probably the wrong choice of word (fantasy) but I thought I finally found someone in that community that was willing to discuss something as sensitive as gender logically...only to find out I was wrong

Oh well, you are still a very well spoken person with some very good points and observations. Being a person (50 white male by the way) who defaults to what "make sense", is logical and is based upon other like situations...I'm still on the fence. Is there a mental problem, a correctable issue or is it truly some kind of pre-birth mix-up? I don't know...I guess no one else does either. Until such time, I can't choose a side and have to give fair treatment to those on both sides as you do. So if person "A" screams at someone who says it is a mental issue...I'll defend them...and visa-versa. What else is there to do?

I've known gay and lesbian people and in general, all of them have been...well...just people. I think that should be the goal. But obviously, if it is something mental, wrong or correctable, that will cause a crap storm. Can you imagine if someone actually diagnosed a deficiency and found a "cure"? I'm one to say it is always better to know even if it is painful...but in this case...who knows. The insanity would be intense.

Have a nice weekend...back to work tomorrow. See ya around!

PS: Never believe what a vagina says...I've heard they exaggerate.

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
a reply to: Freija

Well...you sure destroyed THAT fantasy. Probably the wrong choice of word (fantasy) but I thought I finally found someone in that community that was willing to discuss something as sensitive as gender logically...only to find out I was wrong

Wait. What? Yikes! How is expressing my view along with a little bit of science not contributing to a logical discussion of this subject? I was trying to dispassionately present issues to help sway your opinion that being trans* is a mental illness. It is not considered a pathology, it is a condition. Are there psychological problems? Yeah. If there was a magical pill that could make people not have this condition, would they take it? I don't know, you'd have to ask them. I would say if anyone could avoid the pain, agony and turmoil, broken families and damaged relationships, discrimination, belittlement, depression, thoughts of or attempts at suicide and embarrassment and financial loss and hardships that are pretty much part and parcel of being trans, I would say they might? Dealing with all this certainly isn't desirable or preferable.

But, in all the many many decades this has been studied by science and medicine no magic pill has ever been found nor does one appear to be on the horizon. Every therapy or solution at changing the mind and a person's entrenched sense of gender identity has been tried and failed. Strongly Gender Dysphoric trans people are in complete and total misery and the psychological pain they feel 100% real and felt to the depths of their being and very soul. It becomes a matter of survival for them and is usually life threatening if not resolved. Should we just let them live as pathetic, despicable human failures and hope they do kill themselves or maybe find some compassionate way to help them live and better their lives?

For the vast majority that go the "change the body to fit the mind" route, the fundamental problem of Gender Dysphoria is addressed and abates. For some, socially transitioning provides sufficient relief even if there are a whole host of remaining problems. Even those that undergo SRS may still have remaining problems but GD isn't one of them and most will eventually find their place in the world, get on with life and find happiness and solace. This is the only thing that has ever been found to help these people, ever.

Theorizing hypothetical "cures" in the future is all well and good. Maybe they'll cure cancer and heart disease too but until then, the effective proven therapies will be employed as will the time tested and proven successful medical treatment of transsexuals.

I'm still on the fence. Is there a mental problem, a correctable issue or is it truly some kind of pre-birth mix-up? I don't know...I guess no one else does either. Until such time, I can't choose a side and have to give fair treatment to those on both sides as you do. So if person "A" screams at someone who says it is a mental issue...I'll defend them...and visa-versa. What else is there to do?

Well, one can follow the diagnosis found in the DSM-5 and support the science and research and consensus of the medical and scientific profession's treatment methodologies laid out in WPATH's Standards of Care for one thing. This kind of trumps personal opinion and provides more than an emotionally backed lay person's point of view if you want to get technical on what to do about it. Facts and current scientific understanding are useful for dispelling myths and folklore and peer-reviewed research are good tools for finding the right side of the "mental illness" argument.

Sorry, not sorry and only meant to be partially snarky but I had to go there. I respect your opinion and your right to have it even if it based from the gut and your feelings rather than a professionally researched and fact based point of view. It's really no skin off my nose what you believe one way or the other. I was only trying to help you have a more thorough and up-to-date knowledge of these things.

Have a nice weekend...back to work tomorrow. See ya around!

Same to you and thanks for at least hearing me out on some of this.

a reply to: Freija

My dear...you misunderstood me. I could have been clearer about my first paragraph. I assumed you were gay/lesbian/trans or something. Now...reread that first paragraph

Oops!

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
a reply to: Freija

My dear...you misunderstood me. I could have been clearer about my first paragraph. I assumed you were gay/lesbian/trans or something. Now...reread that first paragraph

Oops!

Oh jeez! I think I'm even more confused now?

Hey no worries. It's all good (or good enough!)

Thanks!

a reply to: Freija

1. I assumed you were trans or something.
2. We were actually discussing things without arguing
3. You said "I am a 61 year old white cisnormative binary predominantly heterosexual"
4. I responded that I thought I found someone in THAT COMMUNITY that I could logically talk to but was wrong because you are not part of that community.

Now does it make sense?

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
a reply to: Freija

1. I assumed you were trans or something.
2. We were actually discussing things without arguing
3. You said "I am a 61 year old white cisnormative binary predominantly heterosexual"
4. I responded that I thought I found someone in THAT COMMUNITY that I could logically talk to but was wrong because you are not part of that community.

Now does it make sense?

This this is all striking me as funny as hell. I really hate to broadcast how dense or how blonde I can be at times but what the heck, maybe it's Alzheimers or something? I hate to lose the plot here after having such a good conversation..

Which is "THAT COMMUNITY" ?

A. The 61 year old white cisnormative binary predominantly heterosexual woman community
or
B. A member of the trans community

Which one did you want me to be? How is our conversation different, more valid or invalid depending on A or B?

Go ahead, smack me. Maybe it'll help?

a reply to: Freija

B...pronounced "bee"....second letter of the alphabet...beginning letter of beginning

I assumed I was talking with an intelligent, logical non-emotional member that was a trans...then I found out you are not trans. Therefore...I haven't found one yet.

OMG...B...as in B-L-O-N-D-E!

please get it...please get it...please...for god's sake please....get it.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

Get what?

Check your U2U's. I don't want people to think I'm any stupider than they already do!


Afterthought:
Can I choose one from column A and one from column B and get an eggroll on the side?

I will leave this thread Frieja if you just admit that this individual was a violent criminal, and that a criminal who has victimized a minor with violence deserves no consideration of their "feelings" any more than the high risk/protective ward (which is exactly where the violent criminal was held). Can you do that?? can you please acknowledge the fact that a young girl was made a victim and was emotionally distraught and physically injured by the criminal who was too unstable to even survive in the "special treatment" ward??

Because all I have seen is an attempt to try and legitimize a crime by siding with the perp and their clear mental instability (suicidal tendencies, not the desire to cross dress) rather than sympathy or the victim of this person's crime??

Look I even conceded and used neutral gender terms. Can you throw me a bone here??

a reply to: AmericanRealist

I have only read a few stories and none that go into details on taking the phone and shoplifting. Your adjective filled dramatization of her offenses seems really over the top unnecessarily filled with hyperbole. Do you have details on the assault and how physically "injured" the victim was? I don't care about her "emotional distress". Vicky Thompson was emotionally distressed far more. (oh, but she deserved it...)

Nobody has defended her breaking the law or saying she didn't deserve to go to jail. Nobody has legitimized her crime. What has been called out is her identity, her gender and the person she lived her life and was known as was invalidated and not respected. We don't know things and people have speculated a great deal in this thread about her mental state or stability and so will I.

Some transgender people can be hyper-sensitive and/or insecure about anything that perhaps threatens what could be a tenuous hold on the femininity or sense of identity as a woman, which she felt herself to be. I read she accepted herself as a girl since the age of 15. Maybe she struggled or faced desperate hard times coming to terms with all this and transition brought difficult and painful changes in her life, maybe losing the love of parents or friends or jobs and and she would have undoubtedly faced depression, anxiety and hardship in the process. Maybe she had only finally gotten her social issues worked out and only recently received full acceptance by those around her? I am not making excuses for what she did, only trying to propose a backstory to possibly account for her psychological state.

Now consider the idea that her life and transition had been a hard fought battle and to have something so vital to her sense of self and well being that she had worked so hard to establish gets completely ripped away in an instant and she's forced back into being something she did not believe herself to be or could not stand herself to be. From her perspective, this could have been the worst punishment imaginable? It is archaic and barbaric to have so little regard for a person's feelings like that or consider that they may be very emotionally fragile. Losing your freedom for breaking the law is one thing. It doesn't mean people have to have their humanity torn away and treated like dirt.

I am clearly only guessing here and making what-if conjectures to see if you have any compassion or sympathy in your heart at all. None has been shown so far so my expectations are low.

Do the crime - do the time. I've got no problem with that but better screening and handling needs to be done in certain cases. Are you familiar with the recent Tara Hudson case? Also a transgender women in a similar situation that was sent to a men's facility. Rallies were held, petitions were signed and she was moved to a woman's facility.

Only weeks later the same thing happened to Vicky Thompson but she just up and killed herself because she couldn't deal with it. Transgender people have one of the highest suicide rates of any demographic - it seems to go with the territory and those that are at high risk need to be better identified. There are existing guidelines in the UK penal system for handling transgender people that are now up for review and revision because obviously what was being done wasn't working.

Do transgender people need to be handled like special snowflakes? Not necessarily but it can't be ignored as something unimportant always handled in the same black and white fashion. People don't need to be dehumanized and invalidated to be incarcerated. Is this problematic? Well yeah and I don't have the answers but they would be something other than the way this was handled.

I know what you're going to say because you've already said it - she should have known better. Well duh. People do stupid things and fail to realize the consequences all the time. Just because she was transgender doesn't mean she wasn't young and dumb or impulsive. It also doesn't mean she needed to be treated the way she was.

So there's about as much of a bone as I can throw. I've obviously failed to make the concessions you were looking for. I'm sorry that hasn't worked out for either of our sake but appreciate the opportunity to try at least. I'll give you that.

meh, thats good enough. I know you dont really want to defend the criminal, you just have too much of a bias to care about the consequences they should have to face because their feelings come first for 'people of the community' (being obviously mostly LGBTQ+$$$) before justice for victims. Maybe yall just cant help it. It appears as a "drone mentality" when observed from the outside though.

a reply to: Freija

Do you have any idea how many trans types are currently locked up in prisons in general population? The incident in the OP took place in the UK so I cant speak much to that but in the US there are quite a few. So much so that it is pretty much a stereotype about prison life. Some of them aren't even legitimately "trans" as you people would see it but instead they resort to that behavior as a survival mechanism.

You act like in the penal system trans people shouldn't get special consideration but then out of the other side of your mouth you are essentially stating that to be. Do you realize they put "mentally retarded" people into general population? That people with the emotional and intellectual capacities of children are sentenced to death? Yet the system should accommodate trans people with special "wings" or separate facilities? I actually agree with you but I doubt you realize you are advocating them being locked into a "mental ward" where they belong.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

Do you believe that Woman belong in Men's prisons?

a reply to: Darth_Prime

What does that have to do with a male who killed himself in a male prison?

a reply to: NihilistSanta

It's always so cute when people purposely use wrong pronouns... sigh

The Woman who killed herself in Jail, do you believe Men and Woman should be in the same Prison?

would you want your Daughter/Sister/Wife/Mother Etc in the same Prison as Men?

a reply to: Darth_Prime

No I don't and I will never have to worry about that as long as people go to prisons based on their gender at birth. The person from the OP's parents/family didn't have to worry about that issue either.

a reply to: DarthPrime

well here comes DP to start the circular non-logic argument all over again. I think we have all made our points, and the only thing you have added at all is snarky comments on why you think transgender criminals should practically get a free pass in the UK. I will just U2U to reply to you directly, so I dont contribute to the circus this case is being made into.

a reply to: Darth_Prime

It was a man, stop kidding yourself you know it and i know it.