Man Tells Cops They Can't Search His Home Without A Warrant, Cops Kick His Door Down & Kill Him

a reply to: stolencar18

Can we stop arresting/convicting/and executing citizens without any evidence though? Or contrived evidence? You have to be able to see that every single thing you are complaining about are things that are done to innocent people very day by police officers, but we are supposed to just take it on the chin and rejoice that just some of them are like that and not all of them.

I argue that being convicted on internet sites with words instead of weapons for people to discuss their feelings is far better then the reality of what happens to people all day every day with actual weapons and cuffs and cells and courts. You can't possibly change everyones mind, and to belittle their experiences and tell them what they know to be true isn't true and they are idiots for believing it isn't going to win you any hearts, minds, or opinions. You have to accept that you will disagree with some people. Of course not all police officers are bad, not all citizens are murderers either yet you are always approached with their hand on their gun just in case.

Edit: Quoted the wrong post, so removed.

originally posted by: stolencar18
We can have opinions, but it's unfair to say this cop murdered the guy, and it's dishonest. He killed him, yes, but that isn't necessarily murder. And was the guy innocent? We don't know yet. Maybe he was. Maybe not.

Deny ignorance people. Get facts. Base your opinions on facts.

I haven't mentioned one thing in my posts, about the cop in question. My premise, was about civilians not trusting the motivations of LEO's and to always assume that their live are in danger, with EVERY interaction they have with LEO's.

Why? Not because ALL LEO's are bad, but because ALL LEO's are LEGALLY AUTHORIZED to kill civilians, as they see fit.

A civilian can kill a burglar entering their home and still have a "reasonable chance" of not ending up in jail, once the all the "facts" are sorted out. But switch out that "burglar" for a "cop" and "due process" goes out the window for the civilian.

Why should civilians take the risk of death, when its far easier to not interact and avoid LEO's, whom are LEGALLY AUTHORIZED to kill civilians, as they see fit?

originally posted by: sputniksteve
Can we stop arresting/convicting/and executing citizens without any evidence though? Or contrived evidence? You have to be able to see that every single thing you are complaining about are things that are done to innocent people very day by police officers, but we are supposed to just take it on the chin and rejoice that just some of them are like that and not all of them.

Thats why I have suggested that police need even tighter rules of engagement than they have now, Even, if, it results in their death, firing or resignation. If such tight "rules of engagement" are good enough for US forces serving in a WAR ZONE, in Afghanistan, than they are "good enough" for domestic LEO's as well:

Spike in U.S. troop deaths tied to stricter rules of engagement

LEO's are not Judge Dredd, acting as Enforcer of the law, judge, jury and executioner. They are NOTHING more than Public Servants that get a State Pension, just like a County Clerk would. LEO's should ALWAYS have to choose between surviving a conflict or losing their job. However, they are certainly "justified" to do their best to live another day, but that doesn't mean they should keep their job either, if someone dies. Killing a civilian, should equal instant lay-off or firing, justified shooting or not. If such were the case, "incidents" of fatal shootings would drop off a cliff.

LEO's have far too much responsibility within American society to have ANY leeway or compromise. In fact, policing should be a temporary position, with no long term employees "on the beat". Veteran LEO should eventually be moved into admin positions that have no authority to arrest, in effect, having LEO term-limits. Police and law enforcement agencies need a checks and balances system, I can't say exactly what that is, but the current pensions, no-fault shootings, and liability payouts, covered by local/state governments has made these guys little "teflon don's".

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: sputniksteve
a reply to: stolencar18

It is pretty sick to judge people without the facts isn't it? Pretty sick to execute them without the facts as well. Just saying. Head in sand.

You don't recognize that this is precisely what's done at the cops in every one of these threads ?

Bizarre.

You missed the very important sarcasm that my comment contained. To explain, you seem more worried about people being talked about on the internet then killed or imprisoned in real life. I would rather be convicted and executed by words on the internet then with a Police Issued Glock on the streets. Both get done without all the facts, but which is the only one that really matters?

originally posted by: sputniksteve
a reply to: stolencar18

I am certainly not about to argue with you, I wouldn't have said anything I said if I didn't believe it. If you think that I am wrong, that's fine but you probably won't change my mind. I can only base my opinion on what I read from you in this thread, and it isn't that positive in my opinion.

The difference between criminials perpetrating crimes and police perpetrating crimes is large, we expect criminals to do that. Police on the other hand are paid by our taxes, and are "supposed" to not be perpetrating crimes at even the worst of times, yet here we are. Therefore we make a little bit of a bigger deal when they do it. They are in a trusted position where we all basically put our lives in their hands, for we are truly at their mercy as you have so elegantly shown us.

There's also one more distinction. Cops committing crimes vs. cops taking actions that you don't approve of. This one started as "was he right to believe there was reasonable suspicion ?" and not "gee, we all know he's a murderer". Well, our best and brightest at ATS did start there, but you know what I mean. lol, just like the other one; it really was "did the lady cop have a legitimate fear of the guy's movements ?". Again the same people started at "why is she such a mad killer ?", but that's not exactly the legit place to start.

Now we do catch cops straight up crime. But that # is small. The vast majority is debate over the cops' decisions. And the cop haters will never entertain a reasonable debate on that.

I'm glad that you've accepted that there's more criminal criminals than criminal cops. Some here do not. I'm just not sure that it's a valid position to say "but that's OK because it's expected of them". No, not really.

originally posted by: boohoo

originally posted by: stolencar18
We can have opinions, but it's unfair to say this cop murdered the guy, and it's dishonest. He killed him, yes, but that isn't necessarily murder. And was the guy innocent? We don't know yet. Maybe he was. Maybe not.

Deny ignorance people. Get facts. Base your opinions on facts.

I haven't mentioned one thing in my posts, about the cop in question. My premise, was about civilians not trusting the motivations of LEO's and to always assume that their live are in danger, with EVERY interaction they have with LEO's.

Why? Not because ALL LEO's are bad, but because ALL LEO's are LEGALLY AUTHORIZED to kill civilians, as they see fit.

A civilian can kill a burglar entering their home and still have a "reasonable chance" of not ending up in jail, once the all the "facts" are sorted out. But switch out that "burglar" for a "cop" and "due process" goes out the window for the civilian.

Why should civilians take the risk of death, when its far easier to not interact and avoid LEO's, whom are LEGALLY AUTHORIZED to kill civilians, as they see fit?

1. Of course cops have the authority to kill. Cops & soldiers both. It's the only thing that stands between mayhem and anarchy.

2. Of course there's a huge burden of proof for a civilian killing a cop. It's the mayhem / anarchy thing - if it was easy to get away with it, it would be sport. But it can be done if you are truly in the right.

Do cops ever cheat on this ? Yes. Is it an epidemic ? No. This is just a myth perpetrated by people wishing they could do away with 1 & 2 above.

All you need is a reasonably intelligent appreciation of these 2 things. If you live your life deciding that cops are your enemies, your life is crap, and it's your fault.

These are the 2 basic premises that give us the only protection against rule of the craziest or biggest. I choose believing and supporting cops, over places like Chicago, Detroit, etc.

a reply to: stevieray

To Stolencar18-I applaud you for apologizing to Boohoo, showing much character.

I am a reasonable man, of course I can make the distinction between some bad officers and the entire police force. More often than not I am the arguing for not lambasting cops in these threads without all the facts, and was basically smashing my own head against the wall for my effort. You have to realize that it is healthy for people to discuss these instances and their feelings. You don't have the right to come and tell them they are all wrong and idiots for believing the things that have actually happened in their lives that form their opinions. Whether people are wrong or right, they deserve the right to have discourse, if nothing else to vent their frustration in a safe way instead of taking to the streets with bad intentions. The truth is they wouldn't trade all of the good cops in the world for their loved one, they would see them all snuffed out instantly to get their dad or grandma back that was killed by a corrupt cop. YOU can't possibly change that, period.

The consequences for people making mistakes and bad assumptions without the facts on these boards are people like you and sometimes me coming on and arguing with them telling them they are wrong. The consequences of a police officer getting it wrong whether on purpose or accident often involves the death or incarceration of a person, sometimes both. What is said on ATS doesn't matter, what is done in reality all the time DOES. We are given a lot of leeway online, the police that literally have our lives in their hands to decide whether or not we live or die, should get very little leeway to none. They aren't more important than me or my family just because they are employed by the city/county/state/fed and they shouldn't have the opportunity to do me or us wrong and walk away just because of that employment.

For the record, if you read my very first post in this thread you will see that I immediately commented that this reporting was biased to paint the victim as a person he was most likely not. I never once said he was innocent or that the officer was a murderer, I never even commented on it. I only said there is most definitely some shenanigans going on probably at the detriment to the officers involved.

originally posted by: sputniksteve

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: sputniksteve
a reply to: stolencar18

It is pretty sick to judge people without the facts isn't it? Pretty sick to execute them without the facts as well. Just saying. Head in sand.

You don't recognize that this is precisely what's done at the cops in every one of these threads ?

Bizarre.

You missed the very important sarcasm that my comment contained. Either way I wanted to applaud you for apologizing for agroing Boohoo, that shows a lot of character.

To explain, you seem more worried about people being talked about on the internet then killed or imprisoned in real life. I would rather be convicted and executed by words on the internet then with a Police Issued Glock on the streets. Both get done without all the facts, but which is the only one that really matters?

It was that other guy who apologized lol.

No, I don't worry about the argument or internet, so much as I worry about people being incoherent and nonsensical. It's just annoying, a pet peeve.

When you make pronouncement after pronouncement, with no evidence or data, and seek to undermine everything that gives order to the world, it's aggravating. But given enough of this nonsense, it could make the world suck. That's what makes me mad, that sort of irresponsibility and selfishness.

There's well reasoned opinions, and then there's just rambling accusations, labeling, hate, and impugning. That's what we see most of in the cop threads.

Just another day where cops violate people's rights, abuse their authority so they can harass and assault citizens then when things do not go the way they like they simply resort to killing.


--Hey joe did you get the guy you were looking for??

--Nope, but on the plus side I killed the poor schmuck that wouldn't let me search his home at 3:30 in the morning.

--HeHe it's miller time while I take paid leave.

originally posted by: sputniksteve
a reply to: stevieray

I am a reasonable man, of course I can make the distinction between some bad officers and the entire police force. More often than not I am the arguing for not lambasting cops in these threads without all the facts, and was basically smashing my own head against the wall for my effort. You have to realize that it is healthy for people to discuss these instances and their feelings. You don't have the right to come and tell them they are all wrong and idiots for believing the things that have actually happened in their lives that form their opinions. Whether people are wrong or right, they deserve the right to have discourse, if nothing else to vent their frustration in a safe way instead of taking to the streets with bad intentions. The truth is they wouldn't trade all of the good cops in the world for their loved one, they would see them all snuffed out instantly to get their dad or grandma back that was killed by a corrupt cop. YOU can't possibly change that, period.

The consequences for people making mistakes and bad assumptions without the facts on these boards are people like you and sometimes me coming on and arguing with them telling them they are wrong. The consequences of a police officer getting it wrong whether on purpose or accident often involves the death or incarceration of a person, sometimes both. What is said on ATS doesn't matter, what is done in reality all the time DOES. We are given a lot of leeway online, the police that literally have our lives in their hands to decide whether or not we live or die, should get very little leeway to none. They aren't more important than me or my family just because they are employed by the city/county/state/fed and they shouldn't have the opportunity to do me or us wrong and walk away just because of that employment.

For the record, if you read my very first post in this thread you will see that I immediately commented that this reporting was biased to paint the victim as a person he was most likely not. I never once said he was innocent or that the officer was a murderer, I never even commented on it. I only said there is most definitely some shenanigans going on probably at the detriment to the officers involved.

You can say that people with outrageous opinions is inconsequential, but I disagree. Enough of them in one place make for Ferguson, or Baltimore, or these idiotic episodes at the universities.

You can say cops' actions have more weight, I'd agree in some amount. But not more than Ferguson, the LA riots, etc.

And I'd disagree that cops' actions are yielding a great amount of heartache for innocent people. There are a lot of guilty people always claiming this, but I don't think so.

Bad cops harming people are in the same ratio as bad teachers, bad priests, bad CPA's. Cops aren't a special, horrifying situation that the criminals and anarchists would love for you to believe, and take to the streets screaming about.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Just another day where cops violate people's rights, abuse their authority so they can harass and assault citizens then when things do not go the way they like they simply resort to killing.


--Hey joe did you get the guy you were looking for??

--Nope, but on the plus side I killed the poor schmuck that wouldn't let me search his home at 3:30 in the morning.

--HeHe it's miller time while I take paid leave.

haha, exhibit A of what was just laughingly noted. How about it sputnik, this is just something that should be ignored, eh ?

This is what makes up these college fiascos.

Unless of course you're one of those people who slyly makes liberals look dumb on various boards. In that case, well done. It IS sort of hard to believe you said any of that in earnest.

a reply to: stevieray

I appears we have probably reached an impasse, I have stated my opinions and they don't seem to match so it would probably degenerate to arguing soon. I will however leave this as I go to eat dinner; Teachers, Priests, and CPA's don't carry guns and have the ability to both end your life and/or ruin your life "on accident". Therefore, there is such a substantial difference that your inability to see it speaks louder then your words.

I would also like to say that it really is amazing how people change their views on life and the things that happen in life with gained experience and maturity. Not claiming anyone here is immature or naïve, but I certainly was as a younger man and its really amazing how things can change.

originally posted by: stevieray
No, I don't worry about the argument or internet, so much as I worry about people being incoherent and nonsensical. It's just annoying, a pet peeve.

When you make pronouncement after pronouncement, with no evidence or data, and seek to undermine everything that gives order to the world, it's aggravating. But given enough of this nonsense, it could make the world suck. That's what makes me mad, that sort of irresponsibility and selfishness.

There's well reasoned opinions, and then there's just rambling accusations, labeling, hate, and impugning. That's what we see most of in the cop threads.

Its not nonsensical to want individual LEO's to held financially and criminally accountable for their negligent actions. They way things are set up now LEO's can just kill people, get fired, transfer to a new department, keep their retirement package and have the tax payers foot ensuing the lawsuit bill.

When an LEO kills someone and is found legally negligent, they should be INSTANTLY rendered un-insurable, due to having to pay out a large claim from their homeowner/personal liability policies etc.

When an LEO kills someone and is under review, the department and the officer should be investigated by an agency that is not part of or affiliated with the state police, district attorney's office or IA and that agency should also have the power to force the DA to press charges. In fact, things have gotten so bad today that we've actually reached a point where the FBI should be doing these kinds of investigations on a regular basis, under a HUGE expanded budget.

When an LEO kills someone and is found either legally negligent or innocent of any wrongdoing, that "killing" should follow them around on paper for the rest of their lives, without exception, like a false arrest, misdemeanor or felony would on a civilian background check.

Why? Companies wouldn't hire people that got caught with a little weed in their car, even if it happened 20 years ago and that person was released or acquitted, but the same company will hire a retired LEO that killed another human being because "their job said they were allowed to".

Which "offense" is worse in the grand scheme of the universe?

a reply to: stevieray

We get it. You love cops, so much you will defend them when they murder people. That is clear.

What isn't clear is why, but I am not so interested as to ask. I just chalk it up there are all types in the world.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: stevieray

We get it. You love cops, so much you will defend them when they murder people. That is clear.

What isn't clear is why, but I am not so interested as to ask. I just chalk it up there are all types in the world.

Well, murder hasn't been established reasonably or intelligently in this case or the lady cop's case.

So let me know when you have a murder to discuss, and I'll gladly discuss, probably not defend.

That would be my mysterious reason why, also lol. No proof, no foaming at the mouth for me.

I actually remember yelling at the cops when I was in college, when they were doing their job. And then I grew up, grew my vision and responsibility to more than just my selfish stances.

originally posted by: boohoo

originally posted by: stevieray
No, I don't worry about the argument or internet, so much as I worry about people being incoherent and nonsensical. It's just annoying, a pet peeve.

When you make pronouncement after pronouncement, with no evidence or data, and seek to undermine everything that gives order to the world, it's aggravating. But given enough of this nonsense, it could make the world suck. That's what makes me mad, that sort of irresponsibility and selfishness.

There's well reasoned opinions, and then there's just rambling accusations, labeling, hate, and impugning. That's what we see most of in the cop threads.

Its not nonsensical to want individual LEO's to held financially and criminally accountable for their negligent actions. They way things are set up now LEO's can just kill people, get fired, transfer to a new department, keep their retirement package and have the tax payers foot ensuing the lawsuit bill.

When an LEO kills someone and is found legally negligent, they should be INSTANTLY rendered un-insurable, due to having to pay out a large claim from their homeowner/personal liability policies etc.

When an LEO kills someone and is under review, the department and the officer should be investigated by an agency that is not part of or affiliated with the state police, district attorney's office or IA and that agency should also have the power to force the DA to press charges. In fact, things have gotten so bad today that we've actually reached a point where the FBI should be doing these kinds of investigations on a regular basis, under a HUGE expanded budget.

When an LEO kills someone and is found either legally negligent or innocent of any wrongdoing, that "killing" should follow them around on paper for the rest of their lives, without exception, like a false arrest, misdemeanor or felony would on a civilian background check.

Why? Companies wouldn't hire people that got caught with a little weed in their car, even if it happened 20 years ago and that person was released or acquitted, but the same company will hire a retired LEO that killed another human being because "their job said they were allowed to".

Which "offense" is worse in the grand scheme of the universe?

I want bad cops held responsible. always. I just don't announce every one of them guilty at the first flimsy whiff of a story. And I don't think it's 50-50 bad cops, or 90 %, like several are intimating here.

originally posted by: laminatedsoul

originally posted by: BubbaJoe
Not defending these officers actions. LEO's experience stress that most of us don't experience in our lives, was an automotive machinist, that set of chevy 350 heads in no way threatened my life. Walk a mile in another's moccasins and all of that, but mental health exams need to be performed.

Why would anyone walk an inch in a cops shoes? For fun? the pay? loyalty?

or because they are a mustard hungry thug.

cops dont become cops for the love.. walk in their shoes? I'll walk in a comancheros shoes before I walk in a coppers.

Their job is not one I would do for any amount of money. I have known many throughout my life, some good, some not so good, some downright bad. While bad cops make the headlines, the other 99.9% do their jobs everyday, dealing with the scum of the earth.

a reply to: stevieray

Well, murder hasn't been established reasonably or intelligently in this case or the lady cop's case.

Busting into someone's home and then killing them would be murder.

I actually remember yelling at the cops when I was in college, when they were doing their job. And then I grew up, grew my vision and responsibility to more than just my selfish stances.

Interesting.

Well, whatever like I said there are many types. It is hard for me to relate to your story though, mostly because I spent so many years as a soldier before I went to college. Selfish stances were not tolerated on the path I took.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: infolurker

I'm guessing there won't be any rioting in North Carolina? Why not? This isn't a vague racist remark. This is a serious question. WHY NOT?!

Why are white communities so docile when it comes to allowing themselves to be abused? I always hear of how black communities are "bad" because they react to injustices but that's how it should be. When police do this, it needs to cost the city money. Every time. Eventually, the folks in charge will realize that it's far more cost-effective to promote better training and stricter punishment for cops than to defend them in court all the time.

White folks don't riot, we vote, we contact our representatives in congress, we write letters to the local paper. There may be more than a few that will do more, but most of us are working and trying to make a living and pay the bills.

White folk caused two of the biggest "riots" in American history one called the war of independence and the other the civil war

Good point, and there are a few more I could pull from American history for you, but not in the last several years. Riots usually get people killed, we lost more than enough in the two you listed.

originally posted by: smirkley
Was it so hard to say "how can I help you officer?".

And after the officer says I am looking for so and do, just say "No, I live here, here is my ID."


Yes, that was probably too hard.

The cop asked to search his home with no warrant, if he would have had a bong on the coffee table, or a joint in the ashtray, they could have arrested him for possession, outside of their original reason for asking to search his home. This is why we have a constitution, and the protections it provides.