It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
originally posted by: Firefly_
This method of "protection" is flawed. You can swap around words, or replace words with equal length words, as long as you leave the encoded words intact. Just swapping a few words can drastically change the meaning and context of the text.
Besides, whether there is anything divine about the torah or not, you simply cannot deny that it is a book full of bigotry and evil. The deity in it is nothing short of a misogynistic bloodthirsty warmonger, who makes the likes of IS look tame in comparison. Is it any wonder that the hardcore followers of the religions this abomination has spawned are also bloodthirsty warmongers?
originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: dashen
You wrote QUOTE '"The Torah (Pentateuch, Five Books of Moses, Old Testament) written in the original Hebrew contains a "security code" to ensure the integrity of the document through the Millenia."
You seem unaware of the textual fluidity of the Torah from c. 500 BCE to 900 CE
I'm not sure what Hebrew text family of the Torah you are using to support your code theory - which by the way does not hold water since there were more versions of the Torah out there in the wild other than the Masoretic text through the millenia. That is, we assume you are using the late Masoretic consonantal text to work out your 'codes'. ALl very well and good if there was only the Masoretic, but unfortunately for code seekers, there were a number of competing versions of the Torah all existing at the same time. Only the MT gained authority afer Jamnia in 90 CE, but Origen's Hexaply bears witness to the relatively large number of variants of the consonantal text.
Moreover, the Rebbes did not start counting middle letters on a column of text until the 400s CE and by that time the Masoretic consonantal text was he one they preferred, the so-calld Babylonian family of texts....
Mainstream Judaiesms (if we can use the term) did not copy out the Hebrew consonantal text of the rival Samaritan Pentateuch which differs from the Masoretic Text (MT) by approximately 13 % (i.e. 13 letters out of 100 are different in the Sammarita Pentateuch from the consonantal Masoretic Text)). See the work of Immanuel Tov for more discussion on this. But the Samaritan Pentateuch can be dated prior to 490 BCE, roughly the same time as the Hebrew Underlay to the LXX can be dated (the LXX was translated into Greek c. 250 BCE).
The Dead Sea Scrolls (BCE 350 to 68 CE) have shown that the consonantal un-pointed text of the Torah was still very fluid in places (not set in stone) as late as 250 BCE - compare the Masoretic version of the consonantal text with the vorlag Hebrew underlay to the LXX Septuaginta found at Qumran in the 1950s. Then compare that with the Samaritan Pentateuch. No single extant version (consonantal text of the Hebrew) has been found therefore (ipso facto) NO CODE could possibly be demonstrated. The Dead Sea Scrolls show them sometimes following the Masoretic Text, sometimes the Vorlag to the LXX sometimes other consonantal Hebrew underlays (e.g. Theodotion)
That's only looking at the Hebrew texts and not taking into consideration the translation from the Hebrew consonantal text into Greek c. BC 50 to 200 CE.
Take a close look at the Greek translations of the Hebrew Torah that use other vorlagen (Hebrew textual underlays) for their source material, e.g. the Greek versions of Symmachus, Theodotion and Aquilla. Origin's Hexapla is an attempt to line up these variants in the consonantal Hebrew text in order to make sense of these anomalies.
So if a person is really serious about finding any 'code' buried into the text of the Torah he would have to decide on what constonantal Hebrew text version of the Torah to build any code upon (whether the Masoretic/MT, the Hebrew consonantal underlay to th LXX or the Samaritan Pentateuch or the Hebrew consonantal vorglagen to Symmachus, Aquila and Theodotion's Greek translations of the Torah)
Sorry to burst your Code Bubble but that's the way it works...codes are very exact things if they are to work at all and the Torah is far from exact in its transmission through the millennia.....
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: dashen
Alright, i see what you are saying now. But you yourself said that equidistant letter sequencing was a known method of sending secret messages. The only thing this proves is that the torah is a contrived piece of literature. If this "watermark" serves any purpose, it is to make sure the text is not changed. There is no message to speak of, only a clear attempt of the author to secure the book as an authority. It does nothing to secure the book or any of it's contents as fact.
As Glend pointed out earlier, the first four verses in deuteronomy do not match up with this watermark. Clearly showing it is a more recent addition.
Now if the code revealed something of consequence, such as a working mathematical formula, or an undeniable prediction, it would be an amazing discovery worth some real speculation. But as it is simply a watermark, which we have several other examples of in history, this is simply a fun fact and worth little more than a footnote, or an ATS thread.
The earliest use of Pi was in Indian and Chinese manuscripts dated from 500 BC. We have fragments of the Torah from 600 BC.
...To me, that is interesting and worthy of ATS discussion.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
If you examine the numerical values of each of the Hebrew letters, and the numerical value of the words, and apply them to this formula:
The number of letters x the product of the letters / The number of words x the product of the words
You get 3.1416 x 1017. The value of π to four decimal places! Hmm.
originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: soulpowertothendegree
the code is there. for thousands of years at least. you cannot deny.
the authorship im willing to debate with you.