Paris shooting: Several 'killed and injured after shootout' in French restaurant

Yes, as somebody who lost a very good friend on Sept 11 2001, if it happens again to me, I would feel the same way. We live in a horrible nightmare of a world and bad things happen to good people. The refugees who will be scapegoated by angry, violent vengeful Europeans are in Europe to escape the type of terror that was just visited on Paris. This is not about Islam, it is about a very fringe element of Wahhabism and geo-politics.
reply to: Brett83

originally posted by: slip2break

originally posted by: Brett83

Will that still be your opinion when it is one of your loved ones who has been murdered by these people?

Of course not... see my earlier statement about carpet bombing innocents and relatives becoming "terrorists" 30 years down the road. For the general population, we shouldn't let this sort of logic rule our lives. This is the same failed logic that has gotten us to where we are. Should we all debase ourselves to the level of the terrorists because there is a 1 in a 100000 chance one of our loved ones could get gunned down in the future?

It's either them, or us.

a reply to: Brett83

No. It is not. They have no carpet bombs.

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport
Really, how about in Roman times when Christians were killing Christians, the total decimation of the agnostic Cathars in the south of France in medieval times, later on during reformation of Christianity ie Catholics vs protestants etc.
Basically everything that endangered the status quo of the Roman church was deemed outlawed with lots of unnecessary bloodshed.

originally posted by: BrokedownChevy
a reply to: Tyrion79

Attacks on innocents are what cause the downward spiral, not the response of self defense and preservation. Those are reactions and consequences of these violent people's actions. Don't blame people for fearing others who kill in the name of Islam. It's their right and quite normal in consideration of fear as an evolutionarily created survival mechanism. They kill in the name of Islam. Accept it. The religion allows for this interpretation regardless of the other side of the coin. Sorry, but Christianity is the dominant religion in the western world and the current level of violence is incomparable between the two religions. Not even close so stop playing what ifs. Besides, I don't fear anyone in America because I am allowed to protect myself and I choose to do so. Go walk around Raqqa with your wife and kids if you're so comfortable with Islam. It is a Muslim dominated region and not all of them are bad right? Go ahead and roll the dice if you believe what you're telling yourself. I bet you'd never let children near that area. It's a horrible religion, as all religions are, that will never evolve past this despicable violence.

Bolds in above quote warrants the reference of the Crusades, to put things in perspective in my opinion.
Especially since that was a reply on this earlier statement made by me:

originally posted by: Tyrion79
One of the things that create the downwards spiral IS to become "distrustful of Muslims".
You unknowingly(?) feed the spiral through fear and polarisation.
This massacre was done by terrorists and not by Muslims, even if the terrorists happen to be Muslim.
Don't fall into this trap of hating an entire population, because a few commit acts of terror.
If a massacre is commited by a Christian terrorist, would you blame all Christians instead?

a reply to: lightedhype

Anyone have the mosaic of various monuments around the world that have been lit up with the French colors to show solidarity in this highly emotional time? I suck at posting pics to ATS and think now would be the time to post some of those pics.

a reply to: SteveDriggs

If you think it's not about Islam, then tell that to the families of the victims whose last words they heard before a bullet passed through their skull, was "Allah Ahkbar!"

originally posted by: SteveDriggs
Figures are from the paper The Role of Public Health in the Prevention of War: Rationale and Competencies
William H. Wiist, DHSc, MPH, MS, Kathy Barker, PhD, Neil Arya, MD, Jon Rohde, MD, Martin Donohoe, MD, Shelley White, PhD, MPH, Pauline Lubens, MPH, Geraldine Gorman, RN, PhD, and Amy Hagopian, PhD ajph.aphapublications.org...
and include casualties of all 200 plus armed conflicts initiated by the US since the end of WWII
a reply to: flyandi

Well, here is another good read on the subject ...

Casualties cause by US intervention

originally posted by: SteveDriggs
These terrorist attacks will always happen. It sucks. Using them to justify war is ridiculous. Using isolated and still quite infrequent incidents of politically motivated violence to justify bigotry against a group of people who have nothing to do with this type of violence is even more ridiculous.

Well said, I'm glad there are still people who can think in a logical sense and not let their emotions reign.

originally posted by: victor7
Wonder what would happen if Obama declares tomorrow that for next 12 months..............no files of immigration from Islamic countries to US will be processed or even accepted. The files in current pipeline will also be frozen.


Something that drastic is needed to make a meaningful impact on global terrorism.


I bet locals in such countries will hunt out the fanatics and destroy them with ease. No need for B2s and Drones and NSA spying on people.

This is actually a good idea. It might force these people to clean up their own backyard instead of fleeing en masse to European countries as well as here. After all the majority of the immigrants are military aged males who obviously don't have the backbone or stomach to fight for their country. Maybe if they had no choice the issue would be forced. Like it or not these extremists are a product of that culture/religion.

a reply to: bjarneorn

I don't know how any of you can take a war-caused causality number and convert that to a measurement of killing innocent people.

By your logic, Germany was responsible for 100 million alone. just this past century.

Also those number in that article are off. Vietnam war has even by the most conservative measurements a max of 4 million .. I don't know how the US can be responsible for 10-15 million.

China is probably the worst with war deaths in the 300-500 million area during the past 2000 year.

So I guess the US is on the low end either way :-D

originally posted by: Tyrion79

originally posted by: SteveDriggs
These terrorist attacks will always happen. It sucks. Using them to justify war is ridiculous. Using isolated and still quite infrequent incidents of politically motivated violence to justify bigotry against a group of people who have nothing to do with this type of violence is even more ridiculous.

Well said, I'm glad there are still people who can think in a logical sense and not let their emotions reign.

And again, if it was one of your loved ones would you think logically?
"My mum just got killed by an islamic terrorist...oh well, sh1t happens, thats life."

originally posted by: flyandi
a reply to: SteveDriggs

I would like to see where you get that number and I hope they don't count casualties in wars.

The US haters are quick to use this tragedy to blame the United States.

I'd challenge his numbers every second of my life, but thinking this is something indepentent of the US is puerile at best. Do you think that all these "refugees" decided at some point after 3 years to leave Turkey and flee to Germany and Sweden (a neutral country that isn't part of NATO)? Can't you really see who's dictating EU policies?

Reality check: the US funded terrorist groups that ended up being part of IS, George Soros funds groups in eastern EU to subvert sovereignity of european countries and keep borders open, the US is trying to enforce the TTIP which is strongly opposed by groups in France, Germany and many factions among the EU states. Some countries are refusing to participate in an illegal invasion of Syria and are facing "perfectly timed" scandals. Some other countries have ties with the new boogieman and are losing billions because of sanctions. Oh, Snowden is not even a criminal anymore in EU. Any more reasons to bring terror into the hearth of EU?

If they are a total stranger in these events, then we are dealing with an exceptional outlier in terms of statistics. I may be wrong, but I don't buy it. I live in a country where Gladio was a thing, I don't pretend that you can have the same view by living abroad, but please don't play the "hater" card, it's ridiculous.

Not that EU burocrats are in any form innocent. But thinking that is just baseless "hate" is like avoiding to see the reality of europeans countries. I agree with you that this is a tragedy, but if you couldn't see the writings on the wall since this summer I bet you aren't giving enough attention to geopolitcs.
Putin exploited western arrogance and incompetence, now the EU has been invaded and didn't respond by illegaly invading Syria like the "coalition" does. So we need more motivations to go bomb Syria, it's not like Russia, the US, Turkey, Israel and everyone who has a #ing plane is already plundering that country. "We" the west need more participation in the illegal campaign against Assad/ISIS.
ISIS is a western product, it's doing what was planned far away from the middle east and a long time ago.

There should be sanctions against the countries that fund ISIS, but the US would veto it. Guess why.

a reply to: Tyrion79

I disagree. Terrorist attacks don't have to happen. And by all fairness .. these are not terrorist attacks. These are attacks on a war level.

Using the term "terrorist attack" is a nice term to make excuses and not act. As you said .. these will happen.. they can't be prevented .. excuses excuses excuses.

These people declared war on us a long time ago! It's time that we return the favor.

a reply to: UnBreakable

The only flaw there is that for the most part, I believe the refuges are fleeing the fanatics who rule their homelands now that the insertcountryhere-springs have occurred. They don't exactly have the firepower to enact change so instead choose to leave. The first generation Muslim's parents in my neighborhood left their homelands for the same reason my people did from Italy a century ago.... they saw the writing on the wall and wanted a better life for theirs.

originally posted by: SteveDriggs
Yes, as somebody who lost a very good friend on Sept 11 2001, if it happens again to me, I would feel the same way. We live in a horrible nightmare of a world and bad things happen to good people. The refugees who will be scapegoated by angry, violent vengeful Europeans are in Europe to escape the type of terror that was just visited on Paris. This is not about Islam, it is about a very fringe element of Wahhabism and geo-politics.
reply to: Brett83

You're wrong. This is very much about Islam. And it's also about how those Islamic terrorists are planning to embed themselves within the ranks of the innocent men, women and children who are leaving the war zones and entering the west.

There are a lot of bleeding hearts who just simply don't want to admit that many Muslims despise the west and are willing to kill to force the agenda of their beliefs. Well, sorry, but you're wrong, and you need to accept the truth sooner rather than later.

How many more events like this do you need to understand that they want to kill and control you?

One thing I dont understand: every expert is saying the French are spread too thin to maintain surveillance on everyone who has returned from fighting in Syria.

So why don't they just arrest them?

a reply to: Brett83

But it is not one of your loved ones. So we ask, please think logically.

Bleh

Is anybody else bearing witness to what is happening right HERE?

This thread is proof. Proof that whoever the grand orchestrators of this world may be, they are winning. In fact it is a blowout.
This is ATS. We ARE the more open minded, critical thinking batch of the general populous.

And yet, not two single parties can even agree on what is happening in France, let alone what to do about it! We are clueless. All of us.

The pieces are not only in place now but in action.

originally posted by: Brett83

originally posted by: Tyrion79

originally posted by: SteveDriggs
These terrorist attacks will always happen. It sucks. Using them to justify war is ridiculous. Using isolated and still quite infrequent incidents of politically motivated violence to justify bigotry against a group of people who have nothing to do with this type of violence is even more ridiculous.

Well said, I'm glad there are still people who can think in a logical sense and not let their emotions reign.

And again, if it was one of your loved ones would you think logically?
"My mum just got killed by an islamic terrorist...oh well, sh1t happens, thats life."

Let's put it like this:
If my mum would've been killed by a Christian, Hindu or any other religious terrorist, would I like to act revenge on those countries or people?
Nope and neither if he was a Muslim.
And yes, I would hate the terrorist who did it.
Again, religion and terrorism are two totally separate things.