Convict sues after being denied sex change - wants Nebraska tax money to pay for it

a reply to: stosh64

If a person has served their sentence and is no longer reliant on taxpayer funded medical care provided by their prison, I don't give a damn what they do because it's not remotely germane to the OP.

Toodles.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Gryphon66

Excellent post.

That makes me wonder how truthful the offender is about his history then. Has he actually spoken with therapists? Lived as a woman? Can he back up his claims that this has been ongoing for years?

Even if the offender were to win their suit, I would think they'd still be years away from actually having surgery wouldn't they?

And that's my point, as well.
Assuming (or speculating) that this convicted felon is going to suddenly become truthful and rational is naive and foolhardy.

a reply to: Gryphon66
I agree for the most part.

I just think under NO circumstances should this be performed while a felon is incarcerated.

Serve your time and then deal with your issues.

I would also be curious if there is any precedent already set in Nebraska.

a reply to: reldra

Yes I believe BH was talking about an inmate in Massachusetts, not Nebraska.

originally posted by: stosh64
a reply to: Shamrock6
If the person has 'paid his debt to society', he should have the opportunities of any other person regarding this procedure.

Pretty simple. It should not be available to a currently detained felon.

Castrating and removing a pedos unit is NOT reconstructive surgery.

And now this devolves into the typical personal BS.

Have a nice day.

Oops. Well, the inmate in Boston will receive the surgery after 15 years of hormones and therapy. So there is precedent. This one will likely start the treatment.

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Gryphon66

Excellent post.

That makes me wonder how truthful the offender is about his history then. Has he actually spoken with therapists? Lived as a woman? Can he back up his claims that this has been ongoing for years?

Even if the offender were to win their suit, I would think they'd still be years away from actually having surgery wouldn't they?

Yes, I believe they sued for the right to start THAT process and won. See Benevolent Heretic's post.

NO...I am incorrect. This person has been in this process for years. They have won in court to receive the surgery. She has been receiving the hormone treatments since 2000.

Yep, the subject in BH's link had been in the process for 6 years before requesting sex reassignment surgery.

From the earlier link provided by Benevolent Heretic:

Massachusetts prison inmate Michelle Kosilek, born with male genitals and named Robert Kosilek, was convicted in 1992 of murdering her spouse and sentenced to life without parole. In 2000, she sued for hormone treatment for her gender disorder and obtained it. In 2006, she sought sex reassignment surgery but was refused.

The state had argued that the level of treatment already being provided to Kosilek –hormones, permanent hair removal, female clothing and makeup and psychotherapy — was adequate.

A group of doctors certified that the treatment was medically necessary and, in 2012, a federal district court judge ruled that withholding treatment violated the U.S. Constitution’s 8th Amendment guarantee against cruel and unusual punishment. The judge ordered the commissioner of the Massachusetts Department of Corrections, Luis Spencer, to provide her with sex reassignment surgery.

I'm still not sure the young person in Nebraska could qualify medically, but as I said, I cannot speak to that for certain.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I know it's probably a rather expansive subject, but if you could nutshell what the roadblocks might be I would be interested in learning.

I imagine the whole "living as the other gender" would be somewhat difficult, but then again some prisons are rather accommodating to that whole angle of people.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Gryphon66

Excellent post.

That makes me wonder how truthful the offender is about his history then. Has he actually spoken with therapists? Lived as a woman? Can he back up his claims that this has been ongoing for years?

Even if the offender were to win their suit, I would think they'd still be years away from actually having surgery wouldn't they?

Yes, I believe they sued for the right to start THAT process and won. See Benevolent Heretic's post.

NO...I am incorrect. This person has been in this process for years. They have won in court to receive the surgery. She has been receiving the hormone treatments since 2000.

Yep, the subject in BH's link had been in the process for 6 years before requesting sex reassignment surgery.

From the earlier link provided by Benevolent Heretic:

Massachusetts prison inmate Michelle Kosilek, born with male genitals and named Robert Kosilek, was convicted in 1992 of murdering her spouse and sentenced to life without parole. In 2000, she sued for hormone treatment for her gender disorder and obtained it. In 2006, she sought sex reassignment surgery but was refused.

The state had argued that the level of treatment already being provided to Kosilek –hormones, permanent hair removal, female clothing and makeup and psychotherapy — was adequate.

A group of doctors certified that the treatment was medically necessary and, in 2012, a federal district court judge ruled that withholding treatment violated the U.S. Constitution’s 8th Amendment guarantee against cruel and unusual punishment. The judge ordered the commissioner of the Massachusetts Department of Corrections, Luis Spencer, to provide her with sex reassignment surgery.

I'm still not sure the young person in Nebraska could qualify medically, but as I said, I cannot speak to that for certain.

You;re right, I was thinking both cases were the same.

originally posted by: stosh64
a reply to: Gryphon66
I agree for the most part.

I just think under NO circumstances should this be performed while a felon is incarcerated.

Serve your time and then deal with your issues.

I would also be curious if there is any precedent already set in Nebraska.

How so? If an inmate improves their mental/physical/educational states while in prison, will they not emerge as more useful to society?
Perhaps negate some or most of what led them to prison to start?

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Gryphon66

I know it's probably a rather expansive subject, but if you could nutshell what the roadblocks might be I would be interested in learning.

I imagine the whole "living as the other gender" would be somewhat difficult, but then again some prisons are rather accommodating to that whole angle of people.

The easiest place to find that information is to look at what insurance companies require for those requesting the treatment under their policies:

Aetna - Gender Reassignment Surgery

A lot of it depends of course on which "way" the reassignment is going of course. See if this is the kind of thing you're looking for and I can pull up more information:

Requirements for mastectomy for female-to-male patients:

Single letter of referral from a qualified mental health professional (see Appendix); and
Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria (see Appendix); and
Capacity to make a fully informed decision and to consent for treatment; and
Age of majority (18 years of age or older); and
If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, they must be reasonably well controlled.
Note that a trial of hormone therapy is not a pre-requisite to qualifying for a mastectomy.

Requirements for gonadectomy (hysterectomy and oophorectomy in female-to-male and orchiectomy in male-to-female):

Two referral letters from qualified mental health professionals, one in a purely evaluative role (see appendix); and
Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria (see Appendix); and
Capacity to make a fully informed decision and to consent for treatment; and
Age of majority (18 years or older); and
If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, they must be reasonably well controlled; and
Twelve months of continuous hormone therapy as appropriate to the member's gender goals (unless the member has a medical contraindication or is otherwise unable or unwilling to take hormones)

Requirements for genital reconstructive surgery (i.e., vaginectomy, urethroplasty, metoidioplasty, phalloplasty, scrotoplasty, and placement of a testicular prosthesis and erectile prosthesis in female to male; penectomy, vaginoplasty, labiaplasty, and clitoroplasty in male to female)

Two referral letters from qualified mental health professionals, one in a purely evaluative role (see appendix); and
Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria (see Appendix); and
Capacity to make a fully informed decision and to consent for treatment; and
Age of majority (age 18 years and older); and
If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, they must be reasonably well controlled; and
Twelve months of continuous hormone therapy as appropriate to the member’s gender goals (unless the member has a medical contraindication or is otherwise unable or unwilling to take hormones); and
Twelve months of living in a gender role that is congruent with their gender identity (real life experience).
Note: Rhinoplasty, face-lifting, lip enhancement, facial bone reduction, blepharoplasty, breast augmentation, liposuction of the waist (body contouring), reduction thyroid chondroplasty, hair removal, voice modification surgery (laryngoplasty or shortening of the vocal cords), and skin resurfacing, which have been used in feminization, are considered cosmetic. Similarly, chin implants, nose implants, and lip reduction, which have been used to assist masculinization, are considered cosmetic.

Note on gender specific services for the transgender community:

Gender-specific services may be medically necessary for transgender persons appropriate to their anatomy. Examples include:

Breast cancer screening may be medically necessary for female to male trans identified persons who have not undergone a mastectomy;
Prostate cancer screening may be medically necessary for male to female trans identified persons who have retained their prostate.
Aetna considers gonadotropin-releasing hormone medically necessary to suppress puberty in trans identified adolescents if they meet World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) criteria (see CPB 501 - Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone Analogs and Antagonists).

Aetna considers the following procedures that may be performed as a component of a gender reassignment as cosmetic (not an all-inclusive list) (see also CPB 0031 - Cosmetic Surgery):

Abdominoplasty
Blepharoplasty
Brow lift
Calf implants
Cheek/malar implants
Chin/nose implants
Collagen injections
Construction of a clitoral hood
Drugs for hair loss or growth
Forehead lift
Hair removal
Hair transplantation
Lip reduction
Liposuction
Mastopexy
Neck tightening
Pectoral implants
Removal of redundant skin
Rhinoplasty
Voice therapy/voice lessons.

and the information from the Appendix that is referred to in the requirements:

Appendix

Table 1: DSM 5 Criteria for Gender Dysphoria in Adults and Adolecents:.

A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration, as manifested by two or more of the following:

A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

As you can see, it's not something that is done whimsically.

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: Abysha

Not the same at all. Gender reassignment is completely different. Diabetes and Asthma you can die from and are legitimate medical concerns. My thought is, if you commit a crime you forfeit your ability to ask for something like this.

I am a hardliner....

You are a "hardliner"? Oh, okay there, Tiger.

Anyway, it is not up to us to decide what is a "legitimate medical concern". That's what doctors are for. When you get your PHD, you can state an opinion contrary to medical science and I just may consider it. Until then, your opinion on medical matters that run counter to what is currently an understood consensus in medicine means about as much as your opinion on sports or video games.

Besides, given this prisoner's circumstances, it is very likely she is suffering from something very different than gender dysphoria or an intersex condition. Again, we don't know. That's what doctors are for.

What concerns me is that you would likely still have the same answer if the prisoner was incarcerated for tax evasion or any other non-violent or sexual crime.

(ps - I had deleted the post you responded to right after I posted to avoid the very predictable responses like yours. You just beat me to it, apparently.)

I think you mean HE. And I don't believe a PhD is what's needed here for a sex change, that would be a MD.

I don't care what any doctor thinks, with as many pedophilia cases this "IT" has, death should be the only option.

a reply to: reldra

And, as odd as it may sound, a better inmate?

Going from a problem child to a low-key, easily managed inmate? Another angle of it.

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Gryphon66

Excellent post.

That makes me wonder how truthful the offender is about his history then. Has he actually spoken with therapists? Lived as a woman? Can he back up his claims that this has been ongoing for years?

Even if the offender were to win their suit, I would think they'd still be years away from actually having surgery wouldn't they?

Yes, I believe they sued for the right to start THAT process and won. See Benevolent Heretic's post.

NO...I am incorrect. This person has been in this process for years. They have won in court to receive the surgery. She has been receiving the hormone treatments since 2000.

Yep, the subject in BH's link had been in the process for 6 years before requesting sex reassignment surgery.

From the earlier link provided by Benevolent Heretic:

Massachusetts prison inmate Michelle Kosilek, born with male genitals and named Robert Kosilek, was convicted in 1992 of murdering her spouse and sentenced to life without parole. In 2000, she sued for hormone treatment for her gender disorder and obtained it. In 2006, she sought sex reassignment surgery but was refused.

The state had argued that the level of treatment already being provided to Kosilek –hormones, permanent hair removal, female clothing and makeup and psychotherapy — was adequate.

A group of doctors certified that the treatment was medically necessary and, in 2012, a federal district court judge ruled that withholding treatment violated the U.S. Constitution’s 8th Amendment guarantee against cruel and unusual punishment. The judge ordered the commissioner of the Massachusetts Department of Corrections, Luis Spencer, to provide her with sex reassignment surgery.

I'm still not sure the young person in Nebraska could qualify medically, but as I said, I cannot speak to that for certain.

You;re right, I was thinking both cases were the same.

Hey, nobody's perfect. LOL. Erring on the general side of arguing for human rights is admirable.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Good Christ. I knew it was not something one wakes up one day and decides to do, but holy crap. That's exactly what I was asking for, thank you.

Honestly, that makes me question the inmate's validity of request more so. Perhaps they really have seen the people they claim to have, but the comments made (I have free health care so why not, etc) seem to clash with the other claims made.

a reply to: reldra

I happen to know of someone who was sentenced to 90 days in county jail at the age of about 24 for a minor crime. A misdemeanor. A first offense, but was against an activist judge. While there, the anxiety disorder she had suffered from since childhood came to a head and she sought out the prison psychiatrist. She received therapy and a mild anti-anxiety medication and a referral to a nearby doctor for when she was released. Thankfully, it was more like 60 days per sentencing guidelines. All of this therapy and help paid for by a jail? Did she deserve it and while incarcerated? For her, it was the important start of getting this thing that had plagued her under control.

I was curious to see a comparison between male and female "pedos" and it turns out there's not a lot of data because it's such a low percentage. Here's what wiki had to say....

Statistically, females prosecuted for the sexual abuse of children make up a comparatively low percentage of convicted child molesters.[1] However, due to issues relating to the reporting of sexual abuse and societal views of female sex offenders, trying to ascertain an accurate number of female child molesters is challenging.

Recidivistic female sex offenders make up such a small percentage that little is known about them as a group.[2]

The reason this interested me was because it seemed odd that a "woman" trapped in a "male" body would do something that very few women have the "urge" to do. It also seems this person had done nothing to transition prior to going to jail, so I think perhaps he's dealing with mental issues that wouldn't make him a good candidate for re-assignment surgery anyways.

In general I don't think tax payers should foot the bill for what basically amounts to plastic surgery, however I do think that if someone is in the process of transitioning and is living as the opposite sex it gets more complicated, and they should get their hormones and even surgery if they can pay for it and it's already been approved by the doctors involved. Where to put them before surgery is a tricky problem, as these people could be more vulnerable to violence and sexual abuse.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: CynConcepts

Because if the thread title was "pedophile wants sex change" then it would be page after page of people offering to castrate the offender.

I'm infinitely more interested in people's reactions and thoughts on the state, as in citizens, paying for the surgery than I am who knows how many comments like "I'll do it for free because pedo."

Simple. No. The state should not pay for it's operation. If it can commit acts of sexual assault as a man, then it goes to prison as a man. If it wants to be castrated after it's time inside - which I would wish was life - then it can seek to have it's own operation as anyone else would.

it is mocking the system, and current public events, and using the "I'd be less likely to rape children if I didn't have a doodle!" argument..

There is just so much deviancy in this story that I cannot comprehend any question about it...

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Gryphon66

Good Christ. I knew it was not something one wakes up one day and decides to do, but holy crap. That's exactly what I was asking for, thank you.

Honestly, that makes me question the inmate's validity of request more so. Perhaps they really have seen the people they claim to have, but the comments made (I have free health care so why not, etc) seem to clash with the other claims made.

Yes exactly.

Sex reassignment is not something that anyone would take on lightly.

Someone who would take it on lightly is not ready for the process.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: Abysha

Not the same at all. Gender reassignment is completely different. Diabetes and Asthma you can die from and are legitimate medical concerns. My thought is, if you commit a crime you forfeit your ability to ask for something like this.

I am a hardliner....

You are a "hardliner"? Oh, okay there, Tiger.

Anyway, it is not up to us to decide what is a "legitimate medical concern". That's what doctors are for. When you get your PHD, you can state an opinion contrary to medical science and I just may consider it. Until then, your opinion on medical matters that run counter to what is currently an understood consensus in medicine means about as much as your opinion on sports or video games.

Besides, given this prisoner's circumstances, it is very likely she is suffering from something very different than gender dysphoria or an intersex condition. Again, we don't know. That's what doctors are for.

What concerns me is that you would likely still have the same answer if the prisoner was incarcerated for tax evasion or any other non-violent or sexual crime.

(ps - I had deleted the post you responded to right after I posted to avoid the very predictable responses like yours. You just beat me to it, apparently.)

I think you mean HE. And I don't believe a PhD is what's needed here for a sex change, that would be a MD.

I don't care what any doctor thinks, with as many pedophilia cases this "IT" has, death should be the only option.

This person is a she.
Who would sue for all of this surgery if they weren't serious?

a reply to: laminatedsoul

Thank goodness you are not our Universal Dictator and we have systems of law and medical science in place to answer these questions then.

Clinical evaluation is the first step.