Bold-type and repetition aren't doing anything to further understanding. I do not believe in God because of a church. I read the Book. My recommendation is to read the Book (Matthew for starters since we're talking about Jesus). I went 15 years believing in Him before attending a church and there is no difference. It seems we've gone full circle with the things already discussed. I'm always open to new questions and discussion though.

Pray, train, study.
God bless.

[edit on 10-1-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 10-1-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by babloyi
They consider someone a fool for believing in religion. Even on these forums.

Well that would depend on the context. These forums are actually called deny ignorance.. and some people still believe in adam and eve, noahs ark, the earth being only 6000 years old.. and being the centre of the universe.
People are quite free to believe in religion.. that is not why they are called foolish.. they get called it when they state myths as facts.

I am sure ther are many christians who will show you how all those theories can "work", and even if they do not work, they will explain how they are "symbollic"
However, that is not my point. They are just theories, like you or I can make up. If they do not support observations, they will be discarded or modified, and if they correspond to observations, they will be accepted until disproved. You can't call someone a fool for believing a theory. For example, I think that the cyclic theory of the Big bang/Big Crunch is ludicrous, but I do not express this opinion when somone brings it up.

Originally posted by babloyi
You can't call someone a fool for believing a theory. For example, I think that the cyclic theory of the Big bang/Big Crunch is ludicrous, but I do not express this opinion when somone brings it up.

When someone states that dinousaurs never existed and says 'God put the bones there'.. thats foolish.. or maybe just childish. I don't usually bother with name calling though. If they refuse to accept fact I'm learning just to leave it.
My main point was that athiests etc. are not usually out to attack or disrespect people's beliefs.. [as was inferred] but when some are trying to force myths on people in place of fact it's irritating. I've noticed however many christians believe in evolution for instance and realise that they don't have to believe otherwise to be christian.

I take it you may have read my agreeing/theorising about the cyclical/big bang theory? it's a progressive.. but why ludicrous? I'm happy to hear and alternative scientific theory.
Could you provide a link perhaps?

[edit on 10-1-2005 by riley]

Was that you? I just read it somewhere on the forums. I did not realise it was you. I had no intention of insulting you. What I mean by ludicrous is that for the Big Crunch part of the theory to work, after expanding a certain amount, the universe would have to start contracting. For the universe to start contracting, time and space would have to go backwards. How can time go backwards for humans? We will see results of something and then the actions?
Just a some theorising of my own, I am afraid. No links to provide.

About it being childish and foolish with thinking that God put bones in the earth (not that I am agreeing with this AT ALL), it is just another theory. No one was here was alive back then to prove that dinosaurs did or did not exist. To a christian it may seem just as foolish or ridiculous to think that huge reptilian monsters roamed the earth millions of years before humans came.

[edit on 10/1/05 by babloyi]

Let's get at the root: Are atheists inherently immoral?

That depends: What is moral? Does morality exist with any meaning?

We can not answer the first question unless we all answer and agree on the more important questions. You all have been dancing around this question without answering what should lead your to your answer.

As for myself, I am a Kantian. God, nor some mystical force determines right and wrong, but rather logic. Logic concludes these things in such a way that it can not be argued without denying logic. Once we deny logic, we might as well fall into the abyss of nihilism -- there is suddenly no up, down, left right -- there is no difference from black and white, light and dark, that which can not exist can exist, and that which can exist can not exist.

Using logic, we can show that atheists are not necessarily immoral. If anyone is interested to Kant, I can give them a link to an online version of "the metaphysics of morals." And no, metaphysics does not mean "magical" in the classical sense.

Originally posted by radardog
Let's get at the root: Are atheists inherently immoral?

We're all sinners by nature.

Originally posted by radardog
That depends: What is moral?

Doing that which is good. The Bible is a nice guide for it. Several things flow after as well.

Originally posted by radardog
Does morality exist with any meaning?

Yes.

Originally posted by radardog
We can not answer the first question unless we all answer and agree on the more important questions. You all have been dancing around this question without answering what should lead your to your answer.

See above.

Originally posted by radardog
As for myself, I am a Kantian. God, nor some mystical force determines right and wrong, but rather logic. Logic concludes these things in such a way that it can not be argued without denying logic. Once we deny logic, we might as well fall into the abyss of nihilism -- there is suddenly no up, down, left right -- there is no difference from black and white, light and dark, that which can not exist can exist, and that which can exist can not exist.

Logic is a great tool but falls short when questioning Life, the Universe, and Everything. It'd be very limiting to turn a blind eye to everything that appears illogical. Our understanding is just a stitch in the fabric of reality.

Originally posted by riley
Well to be more accurate, lies and slander regarding athiests.

We take responsibilty for our own actions and don't palm them off to a mythical devil.

Well you know what, being a Christian, I know that the devil doesn't *make* anyone do anything. The devil *entices* a person to sin. You are responsible for your own actions.

So you need to get rid of misconceptions about Christianity.

Considering someone is a fool for believing in religion is more humane than declaring how much someone deserves to go to hell/die because they think differently......

I do not believe in God because of a church. I read the Book.

The book is by the church

All I am trying to eludicate to you - is to believe in yourself. If you have the choice to believe in a greater god and a greater self, then choose the greater one. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by babloyi
Was that you? I just read it somewhere on the forums. I did not realise it was you. I had no intention of insulting you.

Wasn't insulted at all.

What I mean by ludicrous is that for the Big Crunch part of the theory to work, after expanding a certain amount, the universe would have to start contracting. For the universe to start contracting, time and space would have to go backwards.

Not sure.. still thinking about it.. will do for hopefully the next seventy years.

How can time go backwards for humans? We will see results of something and then the actions?

I think the concept of time is only our own. We have life-spans so we would be unable to view it any other way but forward. I have a theory that precognition is perhaps a result of someone not being completely in tune with time.. but right now just thinking about the creation of this universe is giving me a headache.. let alone how we comprehend time and space.

About it being childish and foolish with thinking that God put bones in the earth (not that I am agreeing with this AT ALL), it is just another theory.

Not a theory when it's been already proven.. when people try change facts [in name only] so they are more comfortable they are just in denial.

No one was here was alive back then to prove that dinosaurs did or did not exist.

Dead diosaurs in the present are just as valid as seeing live dimosaus in the past.

To a christian it may seem just as foolish or ridiculous to think that huge reptilian monsters roamed the earth millions of years before humans came.

Yeah I guess.. but they'd just have to deal with it I guess.. just as some had to accept that the earth is not the centre of the universe and wasn't flat.

[edit on 11-1-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by saint4God
I don't know to what point God would 'just put bones there'. God according to the Bible seems to be one of purpose and clarity. I don't see why God would play head-games. By definition, He'd win.

Hmm.. he'd have to be pretty bored.. besides which lieing and playing mind games is not a good example to be setting.

I guess one person's 'myth' is another's history. I can see how it can be irritating to force anything upon anyone though.

History is written by victors.. so that is open to interpritation. Facts are not.. but there is of course always the option of dismissing even the most inarguable when it doesn't suit.

I'm 50/50 on evolution...well, more like 60 against/40 for. The reason is I believe the purpose of science is to demonstrate through a preponderance of the evidence that a process takes place.

The problem is not everything got fossilised.. and you have to have the perfect conditions which makes fossils rare. You'd also need to find the mutation itself as it might not always be gradual over generations.
I accept evolution as fact.. and I can't really move on that as I do find the concept of Adam and Eve silly.. I can undertand how a microbe can evolve.. but the alternative to evolution is god making human shaped sandcastles?

Thanks for the link btw. I'll give it a look.

[edit on 11-1-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
The problem is not everything got fossilised.. and you have to have the perfect conditions which makes fossils rare. You'd also need to find the mutation itself as it might not always be gradual over generations.

I absolutely agree.

Originally posted by riley
I accept evolution as fact.. and I can't really move on that as I do find the concept of Adam and Eve silly..

To a proof driven mind, I suppose any belief can be silly. That's why when I was in the science arena, I had a habit of turning the guns back on the shooters when it came to evolution. The fight gets too tiring these days and here at ATS there are much more qualified people to discuss it per that link.

Originally posted by riley
I can undertand how a microbe can evolve.. but the alternative to evolution is god making human shaped sandcastles?

God left out the details in his Book without a doubt. Kinda peaks the curiousity, doesn't it? Well, water does come from the earth and we're ~80% of the Dihydrogen-oxygen stuff, yes? Carbon is an earth element is it not? Don't forget your minerals - iron, magnesium, potassium, etc. Vitamin K come from the sun. A vitamin from "let there be light?" Oh boy these are fun concepts...

Originally posted by riley
Thanks for the link btw. I'll give it a look.

I'm almost positive you'd enjoy it. It's an ocean-deep discussion of logic and reasoning.

[edit on 11-1-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 11-1-2005 by saint4God]

Isaac Asimov was an atheist that I considered to be a very moral person. He just did not base his reasons for acting ethically on any hope of heaven or fear of hell. He said he was nice to others hoping others would do the same, and society would be a nicer place to live. Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, Gandhi, and Aung San Soo Kyi are all members of different faiths, and all are heroes to me for their unwavering commitment to morality.
No belief can say it has the monopoly on morality in my view, whether theistic, or atheistic.

Originally posted by saint4God
God left out the details in his Book without a doubt.

No.. I think it was always meant to be read as the story it is.

Kinda peaks the curiousity, doesn't it? Well, water does come from the earth and we're ~80% of the Dihydrogen-oxygen stuff, yes? Carbon is an earth element is it not? Don't forget your minerals - iron, magnesium, potassium, etc. Vitamin K come from the sun. A vitamin from "let there be light?" Oh boy these are fun concepts...

But how does this support the formation of two highly complex human beings and not the possibility of a single celled organism being formed?

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God
God left out the details in his Book without a doubt.

No.. I think it was always meant to be read as the story it is.

Okay. Says you as you see it and me as I see it. It's fair. Even Christians will debate this point among each other.

Kinda peaks the curiousity, doesn't it? Well, water does come from the earth and we're ~80% of the Dihydrogen-oxygen stuff, yes? Carbon is an earth element is it not? Don't forget your minerals - iron, magnesium, potassium, etc. Vitamin K come from the sun. A vitamin from "let there be light?" Oh boy these are fun concepts...

Originally posted by riley
But how does this support the formation of two highly complex human beings and not the possibility of a single celled organism being formed?

It doesn't support one way or the other. One thing that cannot be disputed is the fact that the building blocks for a human body are in the earth in the same way God says man was created from the earth. It either was a miracle (science we don't understand) or nature (scientific laws as we understand them) which is why I said the details were left out, but the stuff that's important for us to know is in the Book. I don't think there's much of a point to mankind being created already knowing everything. Where's the growth experience? I was lead to science because I wanted to know more about how God did it. I learned He's is a master engineer! So, until the truth is found or revealed, the 'how' will be debated.

I beleive in GOD, I call that "GOD" but it's more like the source of everything and our soul comes from that source, for me that is GOD...I consider myself spiritual, I belong to NO RELIGION
For me there is no SIN, sin is nothing
We are all equal, and every sin (like you call it) is a part of our 3D world, it's a way to learn and GOD accept that as beign human of 3D
Religion put the sin word out of border to control the masses and scare people saying they go to hell, it's part of the plan.
My way of thinking is that my soul is a part of me, a part of god and I practice unconditional love to everybody....if people like all-made religions, good for them but they should not say that other religion / non religious are not o.k....if they do, they don't even understand the true purpose of religion

Amelia

Originally posted by Amelia
Religion put the sin word out of border to control the masses and scare people saying they go to hell, it's part of the plan.

I didn't become a Christian because I was scared of Hell, I didn't believe it existed. I found God because I challenged anything and everything that existed beyond the human senses. Also, I'm not a church member, nor had I regularly attended a church since I became a Christian 15 years ago. I'm looking to change that now that I've found a home. Finally, I am controlled by no person(s). Anyone who knows me can vouch for that. So...next time we decide to throw a generalization out there, do me a favor and don't include any catagories that I'm a part of.


[edit on 12-1-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

I found God because I challenged anything and everything that existed beyond the human senses. Also, I'm not a church member, nor had I regularly attended a church since I became a Christian 15 years ago. I'm looking to change that now that I've found a home. Finally, I am controlled by no person(s). Anyone who knows me can vouch for that. So...next time we decide to throw a generalization out there, do me a favor and don't include any catagories that I'm a part of.


[edit on 12-1-2005 by saint4God]

O.k...I was not making generalization, if you don't feel concerned by what I say, don't feel like that.
I was talking about the religion in a wide sens...(different levels of religion beleivers)
Sorry If you feel threatened, I judge nobody

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx