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A question for critics of Socialism

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posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 10:59 AM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta

Do you HONESTLY think that Socialism is solely to blame for Mississippi's poor performances? Have you actually visited or lived in that state? I have and I can tell you that they have problems that need addressing that go above and beyond Socialism and Capitalism.

Also, a Socialist utopia wouldn't be one where everyone is on government assistance. A Socialist utopia would be one where all the necessities can be taken care of government, BUT very few need to use them. The idea that a Socialist utopia is one where everyone is on government assistance is a strawman invented by the right to demonize it.
edit on 16-11-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:02 AM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta


This could change at any time though. The marijuana example helps your case but what if the issue were gay marriage?


lol!! Then Kim Davis wouldn't be in trouble if Kentucky decided to disallow it. I have said before that it might be a good idea to break up the states into fundie Christian states, where fundie christians live among their "homogenous tribe" and progressive states like Colorado, where potheads can live among their "homogenous tribe" and engage in socialism if they choose - it would have nothing to do with "race"

It would have to do with shared ideology. As long as potheads and gays who wish to marry are advised ahead of time, their jobs transferred (people swapping jobs as they move from the 'toxic' state to one where they are welcomed', they can move out of the "hostile, homogenous tribal" zones and go places where they can live as they want.

The states evicting or accepting them can fund their move, help them find apartments/housing in their destination states, and facilitate them establishing residency in the state of their choosing.

I keep bringing up race because YOU brought up race as being prohibitive to socialism. It isn't.
edit on 11/16/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:05 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

Lived there for 8 years.



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:08 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

Its no more absurd than the fact you keep calling America a socialist democracy. All you are doing is attempting to redefine things to prove your point.

If their basic needs are met by government food, shelter, education then they should be doing better right? Hell the only reason the other half of Mississippi are employed is due to some cut throat capitalism luring business and keeping out unions.



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:09 AM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta

Great. Mississippi still isn't an example of a Socialist utopia though. The closest we have to Socialist utopias in this world are the Scandanavian countries.

Mississippi is a product of its own love/hate relationship with Socalism. It has a lot of elements within it that disagree with Socialism (since Mississippi is a conservative state) so they vote to elect non-Socialist politicians who turn around and gut all the Socialist programs that the federal government is trying to supply. Yet many in the state still NEED the assistance, but there are no programs in place to help them out of poverty. Thus it becomes a vicious cycle. Then conservative media says, "SEE Socialism doesn't work!" All while ignoring how they sabotaged it themselves.
edit on 16-11-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:10 AM
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originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Its no more absurd than the fact you keep calling America a socialist democracy. All you are doing is attempting to redefine things to prove your point.


But it's true... Do you deny that we have Socialist programs in our government?


If their basic needs are met by government food, shelter, education then they should be doing better right? Hell the only reason the other half of Mississippi are employed is due to some cut throat capitalism luring business and keeping out unions.


Uh huh...



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:13 AM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta

Mississippi is CHOOSING to be how it is, just like Kansas is CHOOSING. They reject social programs sponsored by the government as often as possible - and the results are in. Failing across the board. Capitalism is but a STEP in the development of nations...it is a temporary step, an adolescent phase. Mature countries realize that democratic socialism is a far superior system for general quality of life,
and the people WILLINGLY pay their taxes.

Self-absorbed, greedy capitalist Scrooge types are the only ones that gripe and cheat by off-shoring their riches and avoiding contributions....giving jobs to Chinese and Indian and Bangladeshi workers is fine, but NOT AT THE EXPENSE of AMERICAN jobs.



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:15 AM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I didn't say race was prohibitive to socialism. If anything it is the opposite using the Nordic models.

Now you are saying we can forcefully evict people (in a loving leftist way
) to force them to go to the state that best suits them? Not picking on you buzzywigs but now I hope people understand why the left are viewed as hypocrits. You would be OK with those things as long as you could live in a less christian state. In another thread leftist will claw your eyes out for suggesting relocating illegals.

I am being cheeky here. You are attempting to force a socialist square peg into a round hole. You are describing the way our current system should work. Only because of the centralization of power at the federal level are we not permitted to do those things. Socialism requires centralization at the federal level. Otherwise you are just trying to call charitable activities socialist to prove your point that it works on a small scale.

How does the economics of the small scale or state level socialism work?



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:19 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

I lived in a town that had leftist black leaders. They consistently ran off business because they insisted on race quotas as a hiring policy for new businesses. They didn't modernize and an interstate was built to bypass them and now the town is dying. Then they complained about not having any opportunities when the businesses decided to do business in a less prohibitive environment.

Its not just the right ruining things in MS. You can have all of the leftist policies and entitlements in place that you want but if you cant create jobs it just keeps people dependent.



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:21 AM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta

How are racist black leaders an indicator of failed Socialism?



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:24 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

Because of their intervention by creating race quotas to force some artificial equilibrium failed where a more hands off approach to business would have benefited everyone.



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:29 AM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta

None of which is Socialism. What you described is just crony capitalism, plain and simple.
edit on 16-11-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:30 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

Really interventionist policies to create "equality" are not socialist? Please explain...



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:32 AM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta

They weren't creating equality. They were creating benefits for black workers. In fact, I'd bet those quotas were VERY racist and lopsided in favor of black people. Though, this is all guess work. With just your word to go against, I really have no way of telling if what you said was even the 100% truth or all the information that contributed to that town's decline.

I can say that anecdotes are my least favorite form of evidence though because you can make them say anything you want them too. In fact, until you get me more official information I'm going to stop speculating on this story altogether. It feels like a trap I can't win because I don't have all the information to present an argument.
edit on 16-11-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:50 AM
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I would bring an example from my nation - Estonia. It is a small nation that has lots of experience with communism, after all roughly 50 years being occupied under communistic USSR.

Despite, the negative history and extremely negative attitude towards communism, no one here even compares communism to social democracy. This nation has taken approach towards Nordic Model with differences of it own, especially technological ones.

We have universal healthcare, free higher education (without the need to buy textbooks), 3-years paid maternal leave, one of the best public education systems in the world (programming education starts from 1st grade + next to no private schools (some exist but they are not able to compete with public schools) , free public transportation (very advanced, faster than cars) + in addition to that this country is considered to be the most technologically advanced nation in the world, when it comes to public e-solutions.

The taxation system is simple - 20% VAT (lower for books) , 21% income tax + 33% social security payroll tax (employer pays, so that when you earn 1000 euros, you receive around 800 euros and the employer pays 1333 for you). In addition there are general taxes on oil, cigarettes, alcohol etc. The government debt is lowest in OECD, around 10% of GDP.

What is unique about this nation is the system of public e-solutions. Everybody is required to have an ID-card as a document, which is a specific card, that can be used for identifying oneself online. Everything can be done online - no paperwork. Just log-in with your card and sign the documents with it using digital signature. Filing taxes taxes under 5 minutes, creating a company around 15 minutes. One can vote online, get digital prescriptions etc etc. The same applies to mobile phones - Mobile-ID. Pay for parking with your phone etc. The e-system has made it near to impossible to avoid paying taxes for any legal company, it has made government extremely transparent. Recently they started offering citizens of other nations the option of applying to e-citizenship which allows them create companies here/expand to Europe without ever stepping on the soil of this nation (this does not grant licence to enter the country, just use the e-services)

Still entrepreneurship is extremely high. This nation of the size of 1.3 million has one of the highest startup rates per capita in the world. There is even hashtag for it #estonianmafia. This is the homeland of Skype, Hotmail and Kazaa including numerous other incredibly successful startups. The nation itself as well as universities are incredibly supporting entrepreneurship. On other sides, free-market capitalism is working extremely well. Due to strong competion between networking enterprises, over 98% of the nation is covered with 4G internet. Due to competion prices are low as well - I pay 30 bucks a month for 400 mbit/s internet and unlimited 4G internet+unlimited calls+unlimited SMS on phone for around 12 bucks a month. This nation is also one of the top nations to have the most shopping area per capita -shopping mall at every corner in cities. BTW, there is no immigration as well


Of course, I do not say that things are perfect here. After all, it is a nation that has existed just 24 years, yet I am proud of the technological approach they have taken. So far, this nation has done better done vast majority if not all other previous USSR nations and things keep improving. This is a nation with extremely negative experience with communism, but social democracy is not communism or socialism. Free-market capitalism still exists, just not in sectors, which are most important for society as a whole (education, healthcare etc) and children are being taken care of as they are the future of the nation. E-society just eliminates the need for additional bureocracy, additional public offices, it nearly eliminates tax evasion and highly lowers government corruption. I am proud to be a citizen here, a citizen in the nation of the future.



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 11:55 AM
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This is sort of off-topic but feel free to do your own research Krazysh0t. You can read about some of it here if you wish.
How White Flight Ravaged The Mississippi Delta - The Altantic The article primarily focuses on Tchula which is right outside the town I was in. Tchula is listed as the 5th poorest town in the nation.



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 02:24 PM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta


Now you are saying we can forcefully evict people (in a loving leftist way ) to force them to go to the state that best suits them?


"Force them"? Not at all. I'm talking about voluntary relocation, with help from the states/fed to do so, including housing and job arrangements. If tne resident chooses to stay AND they're okay living with a democratic socialist system as it exists, OR okay living with a Kansas setup, even if they are personally opposed to it ideologically, then they may stay. It's up to them. But they have to live with whatever system is in that state.

Just like corporations have a choice to locate in whatever state.

I'll tell ya honestly - if Colorado would have me, and they and Kansas would partner up to help me move there, I'd be gone in a heartbeat.

But for now I'm STUCK here - our household income doesn't come from Kansas. It comes from another state.
If given the choice of relocation, I would say Oh, okay - fine then. When will the movers be here, and please find us an equivalent home.

If corporations can do it, so can states.
My daughter has lived in four different states in the last 3 years or so - moving around within her company. They pay for her to relocate. MANY corporations allow and subsidize that.

Why can't states?




edit on 11/16/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)


It's just a brainstorming / problem solution / options exercise. An idea.
Nothing more. Hell, we could do it by county.


edit on 11/16/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 02:47 PM
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a reply to: Cabin

I would bring an example from my nation - Estonia. It is a small nation that has lots of experience with communism, after all roughly 50 years being occupied under communistic USSR.

Despite, the negative history and extremely negative attitude towards communism, no one here even compares communism to social democracy. This nation has taken approach towards Nordic Model with differences of it own, especially technological ones.



WOW YAY!!
I sure hope you get applause for this post.
Thank you for providing a real-life compare and contrast.


edit on 11/16/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 02:54 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Don't know a lot about him except that he said "Tax me more!"



posted on Nov, 16 2015 @ 03:06 PM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta
Well, yes, you did.


So in other words countries that are predominantly white(homogeneous)?

www.abovetopsecret.com...



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