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A question for critics of Socialism

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posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 11:33 AM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta


Thanks. My dad's father's family came from Finland, actually - right about 1900;
I've learned all about that, too.




posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 11:38 AM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta

I went to Norway in 1996 to meet some people I'd met over the internet in various 'bulletin board' websites.

Some were about horses, others about how to use the internet.....

As I got ready to leave home, I asked them what they would like as US souvenirs. One said "An American board game" (I got them a really cool checkers board), one said, "One of those multi-purpose knives", and one said "Hershey's chocolate and American marshmallows."

One of them was astonished to hear that I lived in a small house (1200 sq feet) and drove an older car. They thought we were all rich and lived in mansions.....
Anyway, I took them their gifts, and they welcomed me as a houseguest.....they were all as kind and generous and content and clean and well-housed and free and educated as any people I've ever met.....
long story, but, no need for me to write about it here.

edit on 11/11/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 11:45 AM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

That was nearly 20 years ago. Which was only about 20 years since they started to practice multiculturalism. A lot can change in 20 years. 20 years ago America was a different place and now after 20+ years of NAFTA some would say it is worse. Ive met people from the poorest places in Africa that are generous, educated, kind, and content so those things are not dependent on economic or ideological positions.



posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 11:47 AM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta

ok then.
doesn't change the data presented though...

but, maybe I have



posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 01:09 PM
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a reply to: NihilistSanta

Irrelevant. If you cannot afford to go to Pizza Hut, then you don't go to Pizza Hut. That is how capitalism works.



posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 01:28 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

The lower taxes there are, the better the quality of life of a country. The first thing investors and entrepreneurs, the people who actually create wealth look at when investing in a country is the tax level. Economies flourish when income taxation is low or nonexistent.

Read more economic freedom and how vital it is for overall prosperity.



posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 02:21 PM
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a reply to: TheBandit795


The lower taxes there are, the better the quality of life of a country. The first thing investors and entrepreneurs, the people who actually create wealth look at when investing in a country is the tax level. Economies flourish when income taxation is low or nonexistent.

Except for in the countries listed as having the best quality of life, I guess? Because, they have taxes.

Unless you're talking about China, maybe? Where people are enslaved in manufacturing warehouses and working for a pittance a day? (While former manufacturing workers here in the US are out of work, and IT people in the USA have had their jobs outsourced to Taiwan, India, etc. All for the stockholders - none of it for the well-being of the working people.)

Oh, wait. You're talking about American CEO/Boards of Investors looking at FOREIGN COUNTRIES for places to flee to, right? So they have less and less obligation to the citizens of their own country. Right?





edit on 11/11/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 02:33 PM
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a reply to: TheBandit795

(btw ... Seriously, you're in Aruba? sweet! I'd like to expatriate to Belize
)

Anyway, I'm not talking about giant global corps who are looking for ways to avoid taxes, nor their uppity-ups stashing cash in places like the Cayman Islands, (Aruba?), Switzerland, etc.....to avoid PAYING TAXES.

I'm talking about the PEOPLE WHO LIVE and work in those countries - the MIDDLE CLASSES of those countries that are on the list I sourced above. Who, by all accounts, are doing far better than their USA counterparts in general.

edit on 11/11/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 04:30 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'm quite simple on the OP. I believe people need to support and take care of themselves and their families. I don't think people should be required to do for others, what they WON'T do for themselves. If they CAN'T...that is different but CAN'T needs to be proven. Comfort is something that you must work for as is success. Someone that can not support himself should be provided with enough to survive. Comfort is a luxury...not a necessity. Equality and fairness is a fantasy. It doesn't happen with humans because greed and envy exists...as does hate. You will be tolerated by others but there is no law (nor could there be) that you and your way of life or beliefs will be accepted.

Summary: Life's a bitch. Get a job, get over yourself and do something productive. Or get the hell out of everyone else's way.



posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 04:30 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Compared to what?

Folks were working there voluntarily.


Well when it's the choice between green # or brown #, I think you just accept that you are choosing #.



Which one? A real one?


Yes. Are you aware of that book? It was an expose done by a journalist to expose the horrid working conditions in factories in many cities. He went undercover at that meat packing plant and then wrote the book based on what he saw.


I have heard lectures, I'll have to find the specific statements.

In general, when did any businesses charge high prices because there was no competition? Never happened, and that is the go to accusation in favor of trust busting.

The population doubled from 1800 to 1900, and the population in cities increased 500%.


Well that's because of immigration. When you have a supply shock of labor, naturally businesses can treat their workers like crap. Don't like it? Well, they'll just get someone else. Economics 101 right there.


Those meat packers were moving a lot of product to keep up with that.


So that makes it ok for there not to be safety measures in place to prevent people hacking limbs off and having them be shipped out with the meat?


ETA Here is some of the lecture about the origins of the Sherman Anti Trust Act of 1890

The monopoly crime can be either to raise prices outright or to cut production. Cutting production raises prices by reducing demand.

In the industries that were accused of cutting production, production increased by more than 100%


The other monopoly crime is to raise prices directly. In the "monopolized" industries, prices fell faster than the consumer price index -- which itself fell by 7% as the economy grew by 3% per year.

We got anti trust price hikes because of the democratic process.

Democracy should be a veto rather than a policy creator. No one knows what the side effects of policies will be.


I'm confused here. I'm talking about Social conditions being appalling for workers caused by these monopolies and you are trying to justify it by saying, "Well SEE prices were low!" Did it occur to you that price isn't everything? I'm willing to live with higher prices if it means that workers don't have to worry about dying every time they go to work.


The Jungle is socialist propaganda. Obviously. No rational person could think otherwise.


In Sinclair’s view, socialism is the cure for all of the problems that capitalism creates. When Jurgis discovers socialist politics in Chapter 28, it becomes clear that the novel’s attack on capitalism is meant to persuade the reader of the desirability of the socialist alternative. When socialism is introduced, it is shown to be as good as capitalism is evil; whereas capitalism destroys the many for the benefit of the few, socialism works for the benefit of everyone. It is even speculated that a socialist state could fulfill Christian morality. Again, there is no nuance in the book’s polemic: The Jungle’s goal is to persuade the reader to adopt socialism. Every aspect of the novel’s plot, characterization, and conflict is designed to discredit the capitalist political system and illustrate the ability of a socialist political system to restore humanity to the downtrodden, exploited, and abused working class.
www.sparknotes.com...


At any rate, socialism doesn't happen because the people want it, socialism happens because the powers that be want it.

TPTB owned a plurality of publishers and newspapers back then too.



posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 04:35 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
You seem to state that as a given. Who and Where?

Again, compared to what? How did those people live 200 years ago?


Why does the living conditions of history justify terrible living conditions of the present?


The only way workers can have rights is with sound money that does not inflate.

Socialists always rape the money, which is the reason for 100% of the poverty in the US, and in Europe too.


You haven't pitched a very convincing argument to drop labor rights though.


Conditions everywhere in the city were horrible before public sanitation and horseless transportation. How do you know that meat packers had it any different than any other city dwellers?

There was tons of garbage and horse manure in every neighborhood.



Labor "rights" take money from everybody through higher prices ( as in make some people poor who would not be poor at lower prices) and give the money to political organizers. You say prices don't matter. If that is true there are no poor people.

Politics is a Ponzi Scheme, and Socialism is pure politics.
edit on 11-11-2015 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2015 @ 06:58 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: NihilistSanta

Irrelevant. If you cannot afford to go to Pizza Hut, then you don't go to Pizza Hut. That is how capitalism works.

I think its more about the affordability (obtaining a local bank loan) to buy into the franchise and create another small business. Your idea of capitalism is Dog eats Dog.



posted on Nov, 12 2015 @ 02:27 AM
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a reply to: Semicollegiate

That would be public sanitation build by the state and the explanation of motor car usage made possible by roads being built by the state.

If labour rights make people poor we would expect that comparable countries with stronger labour rights have a higher level of poverty. Do you have any evidence of this?



posted on Nov, 12 2015 @ 06:41 AM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

The countries that have the best quality of life became wealthy because of decades of low tax, more free market periods.

For the rest you're trying to put words in my mouth.



posted on Nov, 12 2015 @ 06:55 AM
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a reply to: TheBandit795
Would you care to give an example?



posted on Nov, 12 2015 @ 06:58 AM
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a reply to: Semicollegiate

Your attempts to justify paying workers crappy pay because that is the way of things isn't working on me. The fact is that everyone deserves a fair wage and to not have to fear for their lives at work. The owners don't have to worry about being maimed or injured while they rack up millions, so dammit they should take care of the people they employ. Yet, they don't do that. So the government has to step in and create regulations to make sure it happens. Yes, that causes prices to rise, but I'm ok with that. I think it is a small price (heh) to pay so that we can increase overall population happiness.
edit on 12-11-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2015 @ 07:03 AM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Yep, I'm from Aruba. We've been having trouble getting investors and skilled workers (local and foreign) because income taxes and profit taxes are too high. It goes up dramatically the more you earn (up to 58%). In smaller communities like ours you see quicker how that tax money gets wasted on a bloated government, on projects that make no sense, on interest they have to pay on loans from banks that created the money out of thin air from [but that's another story]. You also see quicker how government impedes on new investments and entrepreneurship, and how their central planning (no matter how noble) actually causes disruption in the economy. That among other things.

They're doing better because they have more economic freedom. Economic freedom does not only mean lower taxes. It also means among others that it's much easier for you to get started with your own business, less fees, less red tape, less government workers interfering with your business, less regulations that hurt small business and protect large corporations and less chance of government confiscation of your property etc.

That last part especially has been happening in Venezuela for the last two decades. Their economic freedom has dropped from one of the highest in the world in the 60's to the second worst (right above North Korea) in the world. Now they're here on Aruba in the thousands trying all kinds of ways just to get U.S. dollars (buying liquor using their credit card and immediately selling it in the parking lot at a loss just so they can have U.S. currency., robbing a casino, robbing locals and other tourists, purchasing groceries (that they can't get anymore in Venezuela because of government price controls) etc..



posted on Nov, 12 2015 @ 07:12 AM
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posted on Nov, 12 2015 @ 07:12 AM
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a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

Are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs?



See the bottom two levels of the graph? Well here's what they are:


Physiological needs

Physiological needs are the physical requirements for human survival. If these requirements are not met, the human body cannot function properly and will ultimately fail. Physiological needs are thought to be the most important; they should be met first. Air, water, and food are metabolic requirements for survival in all animals, including humans. Clothing and shelter provide necessary protection from the elements. While maintaining an adequate birth rate shapes the intensity of the human sexual instinct, sexual competition may also shape said instinct.[2]



Safety needs

With their physical needs relatively satisfied, the individual's safety needs take precedence and dominate behavior. In the absence of physical safety – due to war, natural disaster, family violence, childhood abuse, etc. – people may (re-)experience post-traumatic stress disorder or transgenerational trauma. In the absence of economic safety – due to economic crisis and lack of work opportunities – these safety needs manifest themselves in ways such as a preference for job security, grievance procedures for protecting the individual from unilateral authority, savings accounts, insurance policies, reasonable disability accommodations, etc. This level is more likely to be found in children because they generally have a greater need to feel safe.

Safety and Security needs include:

Personal security
Financial security
Health and well-being
Safety net against accidents/illness and their adverse impacts


At the VERY least society should provide for Psychological needs which are food, shelter, and water for even the most needy. I would also argue that safety needs should be accounted for as well.



posted on Nov, 12 2015 @ 07:15 AM
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a reply to: Semicollegiate

Well if you are going to dismiss that entire book as "propaganda" I'm not sure we have much more to talk about. I'm not interested in talking to someone who doesn't even acknowledge his opponent's evidence that he brings to the table. We'll just end up yelling at each other eventually anyways.
edit on 12-11-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)




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