It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by syntaxer
You forgot the part where Saddam, his sons and
former regime have been classified non-threatening
since 2003.
Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Another piece of western propaganda, another mindless motherhood statement, which sounds good. The problem is it only sounds good because it speaks to a future that is no longer 21 months away but 3 weeks, then what will be the excuse, they don�t like the elected government?
Originally posted by FlyersFan
If these upcoming elections weren't free, then
UBL and the rest of the terrorists wouldn't be
so dead set against them.
And now, I read in here that there are an estimated 200,000, a far cry from frustrated Iraqis isn�t it? What is the next excuse, I ask you?
Originally posted by Souljah
i ment "way of life", that iraqi people want!, and not their "false leader", nor any other "false liberators", and let me tell you again, what the iraqi people want!.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
We are talking about the Iraqi people here. You asked
what good had happened since we came. I showed you.
Saddam definately WAS threatening towards them. So were
his sons. Thousands of Kurds gassed with WMD.
Hundreds of thousands of murdered Iraqis in unmarked
graves and 'missing'. Torture and rape rooms rampent.
The fact is that these are now gone. Why you asked ...
because we went in. The insurgents are not fighting
FOR Iraq. They are fighting against the positive changes
that have happened. They want the clock to turn back
to the 'good ol' days' of rape rooms and mass murder and
illegal $$$ coming from the Oil for Food program.
You can classify Saddam & Sons as non-threatening toward
us all you want ... but they absolutely were DEADLY towards
their own people ... deadly in mass numbers.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Originally posted by syntaxer
You forgot the part where Saddam, his sons and
former regime have been classified non-threatening
since 2003.
We are talking about the Iraqi people here. You asked
what good had happened since we came. I showed you.
Saddam definately WAS threatening towards them. So were
his sons. Thousands of Kurds gassed with WMD.
Hundreds of thousands of murdered Iraqis in unmarked
graves and 'missing'. Torture and rape rooms rampent.
The fact is that these are now gone. Why you asked ...
because we went in. The insurgents are not fighting
FOR Iraq. They are fighting against the positive changes
that have happened. They want the clock to turn back
to the 'good ol' days' of rape rooms and mass murder and
illegal $$$ coming from the Oil for Food program.
You can classify Saddam & Sons as non-threatening toward
us all you want ... but they absolutely were DEADLY towards
their own people ... deadly in mass numbers.
[edit on 1/5/2005 by FlyersFan]
[edit on 1/5/2005 by FlyersFan]
Originally posted by Souljah
well i am glad to see some sanity in highest positions of this forum. i like to see open minded people, that keep their options open. that is a good sign.
Originally posted by Souljah
but i still do belive that "your u.s. goverment" IS corrupt and not worth a penny! but i know, you as the american people, are not evil and corrupt people! most of you really dont know what is going on!
Originally posted by Souljah
i do not know what is right or wrong, because i have no idea. it is my humble opinion, that i can share with you, since you are willing to listen and read my words. but i know what feels right for me, and what feels wrong. and based on all the facts i have here infront of me, i am able to make my own judgement over this situation:
Originally posted by Souljah
and its wrong to start a war, and
its right to fight for your own home!
Originally posted by Souljah
but are you down with your team, if you see they are doing the wrong thing? and if you dont agree with your president, how can you let your friends and buddies go to war and fight for somebody, that nobody belives in? its like sending your buddy to die!
that puzzles me.
Originally posted by Souljah
Originally posted by thelibra
...but know that I wouldn't shed a tear if tomorrow Bush and Cheney were to be abducted by those Nordic Vampire Aliens from Atlantis...
now that sounds like fun!
can i watch?
Originally posted by Souljah
i am also glad to see some sense for humor rest!
Originally posted by syntaxer
You're clearly side stepping the point of my comments .... I told you already that i completely agree with the ousting of Saddam, his sons and former regime but they have been classified non-threating since 2003!
Originally posted by syntaxer
So I'll ask you again, what progress has the US coaltion
made in Iraq since 2003?
Originally posted by FlyersFan
I'm not side stepping anything. There must be some miscommunication
happening here because I'm NOT side stepping anything. You said
that Saddam was classified 'non-threatening'. I said he absolutely
was a threat - just ask the Iraqis. There is no 'but' about it. He was
deadly for them. So I guess I'm just not following what you are
saying here. No sidestepping ... just not following ....
Originally posted by P Amaru
So you think Iraqi people are living better now under the crusaders oppression then before? Did saddam level whole cities to the ground shooting all men over 12? The whole Saddam thing was just a lie, USA just pays a few immagrents to lie about saddam and dance around statues to make the whole world think Iraqis love america...
Originally posted by thelibra
Perhaps they'll even use the anal probes those guys from Arkansas keep talking about...
Originally posted by syntaxer
Saddam was classified 'non-threatening' in 2003.
What progress? What benefits to the Iraqi's has the US coaltion made over the past 2 years? There Flyersfan, you will find your answer as to why the insurgency is growing and turning into a resistance.
Originally posted by nukunuku
It seems the americans dont know their history very well. If they did they would know they can NEVER win this war, as no conquerer ever won it in a long run.
The funny thing is this was easy predictable. The old way of guerilla warfare. You let the enemy get in, let them get comfortable and before you know it, they are the ones being preyed on. The rebels are after all playing in their own backyard, something the americans dont understand, they never played in their back yard, just everybody elses.
It is true that this is how Yugoslavia fought nazis in ww2. Yes the country capitullated in like one day, but almost instanteniously, pockets of resistance of ordinary people formed, got organized and started distracting the germans in any way possible. And yes the germans tried everything, from killing 10 civiliand for one german, to closing entire cities with barb wire, but guess what...it didnt work, nothng did. And yes it was the red army that chased them out of YU eventually, but red army was full of different nationalities.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Why are you limiting the progress to the last two years?
If it works, the plan could double Iraq's oil revenues, ease somewhat world jitters about an oil crunch, and possibly fulfill what some see as a key goal of the Bush administration - ensuring another reliable oil-rich partner in the Middle East beyond Saudi Arabia.
Really? I am projecting? And what exactly do you call this statement of yours which comes directly from Bush's war cabinet's mantra of 21 months ago?
Originally posted by FlyersFanRef: 3 weeks away and what will be the excuse? - that's projecting.
You are trying to discuss something that hasn't happened and may
or may not happen.
Did the insurgents send a letter to DC or London announcing this as their reason, maybe put out flyers, a video, an internet statement?
If these upcoming elections weren't free, then UBL and the rest of the terrorists wouldn't be
so dead set against them.
What? You cannot possibly be serious to suggest that these are all foreigners, especially given that more Iraqis have been arrested and or killed than foreigners. And if they are foreigners, why on earth would Iraqis not turn them in? Are they all hiding in spider holes too, or tents in the desert, or caves in the mountains, so that Iraqis have no clue who they are?
Ref: 200,000 insurgents - I'm not sure I buy those numbers. IF they
are true, then they are definately a far cry from frustrated Iraqis ...
they have to be those people from Iran that the King of Jordan
talked about when he said that Iran was directly meddling in the
affairs of Iraq.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
We are talking about the Iraqi people here. You asked
what good had happened since we came. I showed you.
Saddam definately WAS threatening towards them. So were
his sons. Thousands of Kurds gassed with WMD.
Hundreds of thousands of murdered Iraqis in unmarked
graves and 'missing'. Torture and rape rooms rampent.
The fact is that these are now gone. Why you asked ...
because we went in. The insurgents are not fighting
FOR Iraq. They are fighting against the positive changes
that have happened. They want the clock to turn back
to the 'good ol' days' of rape rooms and mass murder and
illegal $$$ coming from the Oil for Food program.
Originally posted by jsobecky
Originally posted by nukunuku
It seems the americans dont know their history very well. If they did they would know they can NEVER win this war, as no conquerer ever won it in a long run.
The funny thing is this was easy predictable. The old way of guerilla warfare. You let the enemy get in, let them get comfortable and before you know it, they are the ones being preyed on. The rebels are after all playing in their own backyard, something the americans dont understand, they never played in their back yard, just everybody elses.
It was predictable with the eunuchs in the Pentagon calling the shots. You don't think Americans know how to wage urban warfare? You're wrong, if that's your attitude.
The reason this is dragging out so long in Iraq is that this is one of the most politically correct wars ever fought, at least from our side. We knock them down, bloody their nose, then offer them a handkerchief to wipe their nose. They return the handkerchief to us in the form of a burning wick stuffed into a bottle of gasoline.
We play too nice; we dont want to "stoop to their level".
It is true that this is how Yugoslavia fought nazis in ww2. Yes the country capitullated in like one day, but almost instanteniously, pockets of resistance of ordinary people formed, got organized and started distracting the germans in any way possible. And yes the germans tried everything, from killing 10 civiliand for one german, to closing entire cities with barb wire, but guess what...it didnt work, nothng did. And yes it was the red army that chased them out of YU eventually, but red army was full of different nationalities.
This comparison doesn't even approach what is happening in Iraq, for a dozen reasons.
from nukunuku
Seems to me you are a bit delusional, but i would probably be as well if i was bombarded with the same you are. I just doubt anyone is buying any more.
As for dozens of reasons, i belive there are reasons as you say, but belive me there are quite a few similarities as well. There are two sides to every medal you know, you just dont bother to see the other one.
Originally posted by thelibra
Open mindedness is the only way I've ever learned anything. But I don't occupy any sorta position on ATS. I'm just a bored guy at work who found this place and got hooked. I'm a bit of a Forum junkie...
Originally posted by thelibra
Hmmm... I don't know whether they are corrupt or not. Part of me screams "Of course they're guilty of everything under the sun, they're politicians!!!" and then part of me says that most of them probably think, in their own hearts, that they are doing the right thing.
Originally posted by thelibra
See, the thing with American government is that it's specifically designed to pit people of opposing ideologies against each other. When Republicans are in power, those of a Liberal or Democratic mindset are going to be utterly convinced that the whole world is on the brink of nuclear war and a new world order, and we're only a step away from total revolution. When Democrats are in power, those of a Conservative or Republican mindset are going to be utterly convinced that the economy is in the toilet, that government is pandering votes by overspending on social programs, and that the security of the nation is at dire risk.
Now couple this sort of 2-Party governmental system with the freedom of the people to openly criticize everything from those in power, to even the very basis for our government itself. Then let mass-media spin it in such a way so that no matter where you look, there is corruption and scandal.
Originally posted by thelibra
And that's really the best that anyone can do. I myself am utterly convinced that Clinton was one of the best presidents there ever was (if a poor husband), and that Bushi Jr is the antichrist (and I'm not even Christian).
Originally posted by thelibra
But honestly, either side can find a plethora of spins to support their side. I mean, look how easily some people can weave a conspiracy theory, and find a number of sources to back it up, and be utterly convinced, from that point on, that the conspiracy exists. Debunking, logic, reason... none of these things remotely appeal to those with enough conviction. Everyone who can never consider the possibility that they are wrong, or that the other side is right, is a pawn of someone else, be it the Government, their Religion, or the Media...
Originally posted by thelibra
My guess is that it is a mixture of all of the above. It's probably a mixture of corruption, good intentions, bad communication, and a form of warfare that simply cannot be won. Together it makes for a really nasty stew.
Originally posted by thelibra
I'll do my best to explain, but not sure how well I can verbalize this. Every large American city is heavily influenced by whomever their pro sports team is (called the Home Team). For some states it's their (American) Football team, for some it's their baseball team, and other's it's hockey, basketball, etc... It's not like these teams wield any sort of power, but rather, loyalty from fans, and the desire for cities to house their stadiums. Sports is big big business in the U.S. as well. An average player can earn in the millions per year, if they're on the right team.
Our Troops are like a gigantic sports team for the U.S.--They have high profile heros, villains, bad boys, and boy scouts, just like every other team. The media covers them, just like every other team. They even display a convenient scorecard with body counts as the points. Instead of circles and X's against a green and white planning field, we get arrows and clip art against a map of the desert. They both fight against another team, not because of some personal beef, but because someone higher up told them to.
Originally posted by thelibra
I don't blame the troops for anything. Any mistakes they have made have been at the behest of poor leadership at the top. Between Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush, I'm impressed our troops are still alive, much less, fighting in this hopeless urban war. It's like Vietnam all over again.