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New message from Iraq resistance!

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posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 07:07 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
You forgot the part where Saddam, his sons and
former regime have been classified non-threatening
since 2003.


We are talking about the Iraqi people here. You asked
what good had happened since we came. I showed you.
Saddam definately WAS threatening towards them. So were
his sons. Thousands of Kurds gassed with WMD.
Hundreds of thousands of murdered Iraqis in unmarked
graves and 'missing'. Torture and rape rooms rampent.

The fact is that these are now gone. Why you asked ...
because we went in. The insurgents are not fighting
FOR Iraq. They are fighting against the positive changes
that have happened. They want the clock to turn back
to the 'good ol' days' of rape rooms and mass murder and
illegal $$$ coming from the Oil for Food program.

You can classify Saddam & Sons as non-threatening toward
us all you want ... but they absolutely were DEADLY towards
their own people ... deadly in mass numbers.

[edit on 1/5/2005 by FlyersFan]

[edit on 1/5/2005 by FlyersFan]




posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 07:15 AM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by FlyersFan
If these upcoming elections weren't free, then
UBL and the rest of the terrorists wouldn't be
so dead set against them.
Another piece of western propaganda, another mindless motherhood statement, which sounds good. The problem is it only sounds good because it speaks to a future that is no longer 21 months away but 3 weeks, then what will be the excuse, they dont like the elected government?

And now, I read in here that there are an estimated 200,000, a far cry from frustrated Iraqis isnt it? What is the next excuse, I ask you?


Ref: 3 weeks away and what will be the excuse? - that's projecting.
You are trying to discuss something that hasn't happened and may
or may not happen. Kinda' like all those folks who were convinced
that G.W. would trot UBL out 3 weeks before the election and say
'we got him'. They whined and whined and projected ... and it didn't
happen.

Ref: 200,000 insurgents - I'm not sure I buy those numbers. IF they
are true, then they are definately a far cry from frustrated Iraqis ...
they have to be those people from Iran that the King of Jordan
talked about when he said that Iran was directly meddling in the
affairs of Iraq.



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 08:13 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
i ment "way of life", that iraqi people want!, and not their "false leader", nor any other "false liberators", and let me tell you again, what the iraqi people want!.


I don't think you understand what the Iraqi people want.
What the Iraqi people want are free elections.
www.iraqcoalition.org...

I saw an Iraqi woman on TV yesterday. She said that she was
determined to vote. It was a matter of life and death. She'd risk
death to vote because if they didn't vote, it would mean death
for her country (meaning the terrorists - whom you call the resistance -
would win).

To this woman on the street, Iraqi 'resistance' winning = death of Iraq.
Doesn't sound like the 'resistance' is fighting for what the Iraqi's want.



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

We are talking about the Iraqi people here. You asked
what good had happened since we came. I showed you.
Saddam definately WAS threatening towards them. So were
his sons. Thousands of Kurds gassed with WMD.
Hundreds of thousands of murdered Iraqis in unmarked
graves and 'missing'. Torture and rape rooms rampent.

The fact is that these are now gone. Why you asked ...
because we went in. The insurgents are not fighting
FOR Iraq. They are fighting against the positive changes
that have happened. They want the clock to turn back
to the 'good ol' days' of rape rooms and mass murder and
illegal $$$ coming from the Oil for Food program.

You can classify Saddam & Sons as non-threatening toward
us all you want ... but they absolutely were DEADLY towards
their own people ... deadly in mass numbers.


You're clearly side stepping the point of my comments and creating the "Bigger picture" scenario to argue a point. I told you already that i completely agree with the ousting of Saddam, his sons and former regime but they have been classified non-threating since 2003!

So I'll ask you again, what progress has the US coaltion made in Iraq since 2003? That is exactly why insurgents are becoming resistance fighters. That is why they are taking up arms against the long-term goals of our administrations agenda, by the way which is to establish US bases on their soil and create a puppet government ally. Nobody will ever question the benefits of having Saddam removed from the international scene. But i certainly have every right to question why we are still in Iraq killing Iraqi's.



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 08:47 AM
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funny how the music in this video are "haram" or like a sin in islam... Leads me to think this video wasnt made by the struggling freedom fighters of iraq.



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by syntaxer
You forgot the part where Saddam, his sons and
former regime have been classified non-threatening
since 2003.


We are talking about the Iraqi people here. You asked
what good had happened since we came. I showed you.
Saddam definately WAS threatening towards them. So were
his sons. Thousands of Kurds gassed with WMD.
Hundreds of thousands of murdered Iraqis in unmarked
graves and 'missing'. Torture and rape rooms rampent.

The fact is that these are now gone. Why you asked ...
because we went in. The insurgents are not fighting
FOR Iraq. They are fighting against the positive changes
that have happened. They want the clock to turn back
to the 'good ol' days' of rape rooms and mass murder and
illegal $$$ coming from the Oil for Food program.

You can classify Saddam & Sons as non-threatening toward
us all you want ... but they absolutely were DEADLY towards
their own people ... deadly in mass numbers.

[edit on 1/5/2005 by FlyersFan]

[edit on 1/5/2005 by FlyersFan]


So you think Iraqi people are living better now under the crusaders oppression then before? Did saddam level whole cities to the ground shooting all men over 12? The whole Saddam thing was just a lie, USA just pays a few immagrents to lie about saddam and dance around statues to make the whole world think Iraqis love america... I also find if funny that USA claims most the trouble is over, yet it still has to call in reserves to deal with farmers with bolt action rifles and home made RPGs. The day a fully devoloped nation (iran i hope) comes into conflict with the USA it will be gameover for there gennocide spreading empire



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
well i am glad to see some sanity in highest positions of this forum. i like to see open minded people, that keep their options open. that is a good sign.


Open mindedness is the only way I've ever learned anything. But I don't occupy any sorta position on ATS. I'm just a bored guy at work who found this place and got hooked. I'm a bit of a Forum junkie...


Originally posted by Souljah
but i still do belive that "your u.s. goverment" IS corrupt and not worth a penny! but i know, you as the american people, are not evil and corrupt people! most of you really dont know what is going on!


Hmmm... I don't know whether they are corrupt or not. Part of me screams "Of course they're guilty of everything under the sun, they're politicians!!!" and then part of me says that most of them probably think, in their own hearts, that they are doing the right thing.

See, the thing with American government is that it's specifically designed to pit people of opposing ideologies against each other. When Republicans are in power, those of a Liberal or Democratic mindset are going to be utterly convinced that the whole world is on the brink of nuclear war and a new world order, and we're only a step away from total revolution. When Democrats are in power, those of a Conservative or Republican mindset are going to be utterly convinced that the economy is in the toilet, that government is pandering votes by overspending on social programs, and that the security of the nation is at dire risk.

Now couple this sort of 2-Party governmental system with the freedom of the people to openly criticize everything from those in power, to even the very basis for our government itself. Then let mass-media spin it in such a way so that no matter where you look, there is corruption and scandal.

The result is that roughly half of all U.S. citizens, at any given time, are going to be utterly convinced our President is either a horrible monster or a lame duck, and nothing will ever change that. Now multiply that by the entire world, with all its different governments, and spins...



Originally posted by Souljah
i do not know what is right or wrong, because i have no idea. it is my humble opinion, that i can share with you, since you are willing to listen and read my words. but i know what feels right for me, and what feels wrong. and based on all the facts i have here infront of me, i am able to make my own judgement over this situation:


And that's really the best that anyone can do. I myself am utterly convinced that Clinton was one of the best presidents there ever was (if a poor husband), and that Bushi Jr is the antichrist (and I'm not even Christian).

But honestly, either side can find a plethora of spins to support their side. I mean, look how easily some people can weave a conspiracy theory, and find a number of sources to back it up, and be utterly convinced, from that point on, that the conspiracy exists. Debunking, logic, reason... none of these things remotely appeal to those with enough conviction. Everyone who can never consider the possibility that they are wrong, or that the other side is right, is a pawn of someone else, be it the Government, their Religion, or the Media...


Originally posted by Souljah
and its wrong to start a war, and
its right to fight for your own home!


The latter, I couldn't agree with more. But one must also consider the possibility that the insurgents are not all "defending their home," but rather the interests of other people who'd rather be in power than elected officials. I have no doubt that there are people in the ranks of the insurgents who feel they are defending their nation, and believe it with all of their heart. However, there is just as much possibility of them being manipulated by criminals as our own troops.

My guess is that it is a mixture of all of the above. It's probably a mixture of corruption, good intentions, bad communication, and a form of warfare that simply cannot be won. Together it makes for a really nasty stew.


Originally posted by Souljah
but are you down with your team, if you see they are doing the wrong thing? and if you dont agree with your president, how can you let your friends and buddies go to war and fight for somebody, that nobody belives in? its like sending your buddy to die!
that puzzles me.


I'll do my best to explain, but not sure how well I can verbalize this. Every large American city is heavily influenced by whomever their pro sports team is (called the Home Team). For some states it's their (American) Football team, for some it's their baseball team, and other's it's hockey, basketball, etc... It's not like these teams wield any sort of power, but rather, loyalty from fans, and the desire for cities to house their stadiums. Sports is big big business in the U.S. as well. An average player can earn in the millions per year, if they're on the right team.

Anyway, at some point in history, everyone's Home Team had a shining moment that the fans will never stop talking about. From that point on, fans are born, who root for the team, even when their performance is awful and the coach is hated. In the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex, when Football season comes around, you cheer on the Cowboys.

It doesn't matter that they have no offense, sloppy defense, the coach can't control the players, the players can't control their drug habits, and the quarterbacks have been a joke since Troy Aikman... They're the Cowboys! You have to cheer them on. Otherwise, you're seen as a fair-weather fan. Which is to say, you only support your team when they are doing well, which is sort of like being a fair-weather friend, only The Cowboys never helped me move. No one likes being seen as a fair-weather anything, so like or hate the team, they get the support. Anyway, this is what gets ingrained into one from childhood onward.

Our Troops are like a gigantic sports team for the U.S.--They have high profile heros, villains, bad boys, and boy scouts, just like every other team. The media covers them, just like every other team. They even display a convenient scorecard with body counts as the points. Instead of circles and X's against a green and white planning field, we get arrows and clip art against a map of the desert. They both fight against another team, not because of some personal beef, but because someone higher up told them to.

Unlike our sports teams, though, they have taken an oath to stay on that team, and to die for that team if neccesary, for less pay than your average McDonald's assistant manager. They have to constantly walk a balance beam between following orders, following the Rules of Engagement, conflicting objectives, babysitting non-combatants like reporters, and--oh, yeah!--making sure they don't catch a bullet or shrapnel in the process.

I don't blame the troops for anything. Any mistakes they have made have been at the behest of poor leadership at the top. Between Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush, I'm impressed our troops are still alive, much less, fighting in this hopeless urban war. It's like Vietnam all over again.


Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by thelibra
...but know that I wouldn't shed a tear if tomorrow Bush and Cheney were to be abducted by those Nordic Vampire Aliens from Atlantis...

now that sounds like fun!
can i watch?


Perhaps they'll even use the anal probes those guys from Arkansas keep talking about...


Originally posted by Souljah
i am also glad to see some sense for humor rest!


Sometimes it gets me in trouble, truth be told, but it's my way of coping with the horror of the everyday world.



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
You're clearly side stepping the point of my comments .... I told you already that i completely agree with the ousting of Saddam, his sons and former regime but they have been classified non-threating since 2003!


I'm not side stepping anything. There must be some miscommunication
happening here because I'm NOT side stepping anything. You said
that Saddam was classified 'non-threatening'. I said he absolutely
was a threat - just ask the Iraqis. There is no 'but' about it. He was
deadly for them. So I guess I'm just not following what you are
saying here. No sidestepping ... just not following ....



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
So I'll ask you again, what progress has the US coaltion
made in Iraq since 2003?


So I'll answer AGAIN (see bottom of page 1)

www.windsofchange.net...
This is rather long, but it does get into the GNP being raised
higher than pre-war, and it does get into the schools our
Army Corp of Engineers have been rebuilding over there
(and updating, and clearing of ordinance, etc.) as well as
other things we are doing.

It is easily googled up ... things that we are doing and
progress that's being made. These things take time.
50 years of Saddam can't be wiped out in 1 or 2 years.
Reconstruction after WWII took 4 or 5 years in Germany
and in Japan.



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

I'm not side stepping anything. There must be some miscommunication
happening here because I'm NOT side stepping anything. You said
that Saddam was classified 'non-threatening'. I said he absolutely
was a threat - just ask the Iraqis. There is no 'but' about it. He was
deadly for them. So I guess I'm just not following what you are
saying here. No sidestepping ... just not following ....


Saddam was classified 'non-threatening' in 2003. I'll ask you once more based on miscommunication before i walk away from this one.

What progress? What benefits to the Iraqi's has the US coaltion made over the past 2 years? There Flyersfan, you will find your answer as to why the insurgency is growing and turning into a resistance. Just put Saddam Hussein aside for the moment and concentrate on the past 2 years since his capture.

I'm simply pointing out as to why the Insurgency is growing and morphing into a collective resistance.

[edit on 5-1-2005 by syntaxer]



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by P Amaru
So you think Iraqi people are living better now under the crusaders oppression then before? Did saddam level whole cities to the ground shooting all men over 12? The whole Saddam thing was just a lie, USA just pays a few immagrents to lie about saddam and dance around statues to make the whole world think Iraqis love america...


Your rhetoric and strange take on history is ... well ... strange.
Oh .. and 'Crusaders'??? ... pleeeeeeeease!

Oppression? Yeah, right. That's why the Iraqis can now vote for
the first time in 50 years. And they are looking forward to it!
As kindly provided by Seekerof
tigerhawk.blogspot.com...

That's a site that (I think) leans to the left and is rather anti-Bush,
so don't go thinking it's a radical right wing site. It isn't

Yes, Saddam would level whole cities (remember the gassing of
the thousands of Kurds and the subsequent take over of Kurdish land by
buds of Saddam?)

The evils Saddam has done are lies? America paid Iraqis to dance
with joy when America and Iraqis JOINTLY took down Saddams
statue on that April day? Man ... this is so far out there it would
be impossible to get through to you. All I can say is ... hope you
are enjoying your reality, because it sure is interesting.


[edit on 1/5/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by thelibra

Perhaps they'll even use the anal probes those guys from Arkansas keep talking about...


What guys from Arkansas? You need to get the story straight ts Yankees COMING to Arkansas that talk about it. Heck some have MOVED here because of it


[edit on 5-1-2005 by Amuk]



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
Saddam was classified 'non-threatening' in 2003.

What progress? What benefits to the Iraqi's has the US coaltion made over the past 2 years? There Flyersfan, you will find your answer as to why the insurgency is growing and turning into a resistance.


Man ... we just can't figure where each other is coming from over
these lines. I'm REALLY trying to figure out what the heck you
are talking about. REALLY. You have said three times (?) that
Saddam was classified 'nonthreatening', and three times (?) I've
said so what, he was a deadly threat to the Iraqis. You've asked
three times about progress. This is the third time I've posted this
web site.

www.windsofchange.net...

Why are you limiting the progress to the last two years? Do you
not want to consider getting rid of Saddam and his sons as progress?
It is. The site Seekerof posted that tells of the Iraqis WANTING to
vote .... having a say in their government ... that's BIG progress.

The insurgency isn't growing into a resistence. It just isn't.
And for the third time I'll quote the King of Jordan who said that
Iran is meddling and getting involved in Iraq ... involved to the
point of sending tens of thousands of Sunni over the boarder
to illegally vote and to disrupt the coalition efforts to turn Iraq
over to the Iraqis.

Every time the insurgents murder their fellow Iraqis, and every
time they blow up a pipeline, they aren't fighting for their homeland...
they are just keeping Americans there longer and prolonging the
time until we can hand the country over to the FREE Iraqi government
that the people will elect. That thought terrifies the insurgents for
reasons I've already stated.



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by nukunuku
It seems the americans dont know their history very well. If they did they would know they can NEVER win this war, as no conquerer ever won it in a long run.

The funny thing is this was easy predictable. The old way of guerilla warfare. You let the enemy get in, let them get comfortable and before you know it, they are the ones being preyed on. The rebels are after all playing in their own backyard, something the americans dont understand, they never played in their back yard, just everybody elses.

It was predictable with the eunuchs in the Pentagon calling the shots. You don't think Americans know how to wage urban warfare? You're wrong, if that's your attitude.

The reason this is dragging out so long in Iraq is that this is one of the most politically correct wars ever fought, at least from our side. We knock them down, bloody their nose, then offer them a handkerchief to wipe their nose. They return the handkerchief to us in the form of a burning wick stuffed into a bottle of gasoline.

We play too nice; we dont want to "stoop to their level".



It is true that this is how Yugoslavia fought nazis in ww2. Yes the country capitullated in like one day, but almost instanteniously, pockets of resistance of ordinary people formed, got organized and started distracting the germans in any way possible. And yes the germans tried everything, from killing 10 civiliand for one german, to closing entire cities with barb wire, but guess what...it didnt work, nothng did. And yes it was the red army that chased them out of YU eventually, but red army was full of different nationalities.

This comparison doesn't even approach what is happening in Iraq, for a dozen reasons.




posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Why are you limiting the progress to the last two years?


Two years ago their was hardly a whisper of insurgency in Iraq. The Iraqi's were dancing on the streets in Baghdad shouting Allah is great, death to Saddam while slapping slippers on the face of his fallen statue personally thanking the American soldiers. Plenty of progress, no arguement there!
At that point why didnt we turn over the country to it's rightful owners? Baghdad today is a complete mess. Perhaps a hidden US agenda/s?

I am limiting the progress to the last two years because their hasn't been any! in fact, things are getting worse day by day. Insurgents are turning those pro-american Iraqi's into resistance fighters because they're living and experiencing the lack of progress themselves. Day by day since 2003, mass oil exports take place without any significant infrastructure or rebuilding of Iraqi cities. Where is the oil going and why?

BTW:
www.windsofchange.net... = 100% Pro American everything, ya no surprise there. Try reading something pro Islamic or 3rd party english and broaden your perception of this war.

Hey, perhaps Iraqi resistance fighters are growing to counter-act decisions made by the Iraqi interim council of ministers? by the way just in case you are unaware, the council are inviting foreign oil companies to develop potential fields in Iraq. Guess who appointed those cool interim council of ministers? Please refer to the hidden agenda theory and the ever growing resistance motives.

www.csmonitor.com...



If it works, the plan could double Iraq's oil revenues, ease somewhat world jitters about an oil crunch, and possibly fulfill what some see as a key goal of the Bush administration - ensuring another reliable oil-rich partner in the Middle East beyond Saudi Arabia.


Shouldn't the FREE Iraqi elected government make these decisions instead of a US appointed council of Iraqi ministers? But hey, it worked with ex-ceo of Unocal Hamid Karzai in Aganistan and guess what? Afganistan has a cool Unocal pipeline running through their country!

[edit on 5-1-2005 by syntaxer]



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFanRef: 3 weeks away and what will be the excuse? - that's projecting.
You are trying to discuss something that hasn't happened and may
or may not happen.
Really? I am projecting? And what exactly do you call this statement of yours which comes directly from Bush's war cabinet's mantra of 21 months ago?

If these upcoming elections weren't free, then UBL and the rest of the terrorists wouldn't be
so dead set against them.
Did the insurgents send a letter to DC or London announcing this as their reason, maybe put out flyers, a video, an internet statement?


I tell you this much, I am more confident in my statement that this insurgency will not end after the next three weeks have passed, as well as the next excuse to be put forward, than you can be in the ridiculous assumption and the only possible conclusion to be drawn from same, which is that the insurgency's goal is to halt the election plan and therefore once that takes place, they have no reason to continue that path.


Ref: 200,000 insurgents - I'm not sure I buy those numbers. IF they
are true, then they are definately a far cry from frustrated Iraqis ...
they have to be those people from Iran that the King of Jordan
talked about when he said that Iran was directly meddling in the
affairs of Iraq.
What? You cannot possibly be serious to suggest that these are all foreigners, especially given that more Iraqis have been arrested and or killed than foreigners. And if they are foreigners, why on earth would Iraqis not turn them in? Are they all hiding in spider holes too, or tents in the desert, or caves in the mountains, so that Iraqis have no clue who they are?



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

We are talking about the Iraqi people here. You asked
what good had happened since we came. I showed you.
Saddam definately WAS threatening towards them. So were
his sons. Thousands of Kurds gassed with WMD.
Hundreds of thousands of murdered Iraqis in unmarked
graves and 'missing'. Torture and rape rooms rampent.

The fact is that these are now gone. Why you asked ...
because we went in. The insurgents are not fighting
FOR Iraq. They are fighting against the positive changes
that have happened. They want the clock to turn back
to the 'good ol' days' of rape rooms and mass murder and
illegal $$$ coming from the Oil for Food program.



You claim that the torture and rape rooms are now long gone, but they are really not! Heard about a prison called Abu Grahib? and the things that went on inside? Torturing and sexual humilation of iraqis! So the rape and torture rooms are not gone, they have just changed owners!

The americans have made so many mistakes after the "end" of this illegal war, and you should now understand that the resistance attacks against your soldiers will not stop before the last american soldier leaves iraq!

You are losing this war! And you are losing it hard and fast!



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by nukunuku
It seems the americans dont know their history very well. If they did they would know they can NEVER win this war, as no conquerer ever won it in a long run.

The funny thing is this was easy predictable. The old way of guerilla warfare. You let the enemy get in, let them get comfortable and before you know it, they are the ones being preyed on. The rebels are after all playing in their own backyard, something the americans dont understand, they never played in their back yard, just everybody elses.

It was predictable with the eunuchs in the Pentagon calling the shots. You don't think Americans know how to wage urban warfare? You're wrong, if that's your attitude.

The reason this is dragging out so long in Iraq is that this is one of the most politically correct wars ever fought, at least from our side. We knock them down, bloody their nose, then offer them a handkerchief to wipe their nose. They return the handkerchief to us in the form of a burning wick stuffed into a bottle of gasoline.

We play too nice; we dont want to "stoop to their level".



It is true that this is how Yugoslavia fought nazis in ww2. Yes the country capitullated in like one day, but almost instanteniously, pockets of resistance of ordinary people formed, got organized and started distracting the germans in any way possible. And yes the germans tried everything, from killing 10 civiliand for one german, to closing entire cities with barb wire, but guess what...it didnt work, nothng did. And yes it was the red army that chased them out of YU eventually, but red army was full of different nationalities.

This comparison doesn't even approach what is happening in Iraq, for a dozen reasons.




hmmmm, seems your arguments are pretty weak.
Seems to me you are a bit delusional, but i would probably be as well if i was bombarded with the same # you are. I just doubt anyone is buying any more.

As for dozens of reasons, i belive there are reasons as you say, but belive me there are quite a few similarities as well. There are two sides to every medal you know, you just dont bother to see the other one.



posted on Jan, 5 2005 @ 05:58 PM
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from nukunuku
Seems to me you are a bit delusional, but i would probably be as well if i was bombarded with the same you are. I just doubt anyone is buying any more.

Whether you "buy it" or not is irrelevant. You don't know the heart of the American people; you aren't one. At least I'm not embarasssed to name my country of origin.


As for dozens of reasons, i belive there are reasons as you say, but belive me there are quite a few similarities as well. There are two sides to every medal you know, you just dont bother to see the other one.

Plenty of similarities. The Germans wore helmets, so did the Americans. That's about where the similarities end, though. You have a very weak argument here.



posted on Jan, 6 2005 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by thelibra
Open mindedness is the only way I've ever learned anything. But I don't occupy any sorta position on ATS. I'm just a bored guy at work who found this place and got hooked. I'm a bit of a Forum junkie...

i have mistaken you for a moderator.
sorry.


Originally posted by thelibra
Hmmm... I don't know whether they are corrupt or not. Part of me screams "Of course they're guilty of everything under the sun, they're politicians!!!" and then part of me says that most of them probably think, in their own hearts, that they are doing the right thing.

there is a good quote about politicans in a movie, "hunt 4 red octorber", when security advisor of the president of the u.s. talks to dr.ryan:

"im a politician, which means im a cheap and a liar
and when i am not kissing babies im stealing their lollipops!"



Originally posted by thelibra
See, the thing with American government is that it's specifically designed to pit people of opposing ideologies against each other. When Republicans are in power, those of a Liberal or Democratic mindset are going to be utterly convinced that the whole world is on the brink of nuclear war and a new world order, and we're only a step away from total revolution. When Democrats are in power, those of a Conservative or Republican mindset are going to be utterly convinced that the economy is in the toilet, that government is pandering votes by overspending on social programs, and that the security of the nation is at dire risk.

Now couple this sort of 2-Party governmental system with the freedom of the people to openly criticize everything from those in power, to even the very basis for our government itself. Then let mass-media spin it in such a way so that no matter where you look, there is corruption and scandal.

i think you country was always split in half like that, since the civil war.
there are the "cool" democrats, the tolerant north
and the "angry" republicans, the not-tolerant south.
and still today those problems from your civil war are not solved. the position of a black man in america is never goin to be nearly as important as that of a white man. but thats another story.


Originally posted by thelibra
And that's really the best that anyone can do. I myself am utterly convinced that Clinton was one of the best presidents there ever was (if a poor husband), and that Bushi Jr is the antichrist (and I'm not even Christian).

i liked president clinton also! and president j.f.kennedy.
but your current presient is really a nightmare, responsible for all this bush*t we are all in!


Originally posted by thelibra
But honestly, either side can find a plethora of spins to support their side. I mean, look how easily some people can weave a conspiracy theory, and find a number of sources to back it up, and be utterly convinced, from that point on, that the conspiracy exists. Debunking, logic, reason... none of these things remotely appeal to those with enough conviction. Everyone who can never consider the possibility that they are wrong, or that the other side is right, is a pawn of someone else, be it the Government, their Religion, or the Media...

you must understand that people as a mass are easily controlable. you just need an effective propaganda machine. and if you unite the goverment, religion and the media, you have a perfect brainwashing-propaganda machine, that can infulence just about anyone, everywhere!


Originally posted by thelibra
My guess is that it is a mixture of all of the above. It's probably a mixture of corruption, good intentions, bad communication, and a form of warfare that simply cannot be won. Together it makes for a really nasty stew.

i agree.
there is a big mess down there, and nobody knows exactly what is goin on!
but i think that people are standing togather and having enaugh of suffering and killings. and its the people who make the changes, if they really want to!


Originally posted by thelibra
I'll do my best to explain, but not sure how well I can verbalize this. Every large American city is heavily influenced by whomever their pro sports team is (called the Home Team). For some states it's their (American) Football team, for some it's their baseball team, and other's it's hockey, basketball, etc... It's not like these teams wield any sort of power, but rather, loyalty from fans, and the desire for cities to house their stadiums. Sports is big big business in the U.S. as well. An average player can earn in the millions per year, if they're on the right team.

Our Troops are like a gigantic sports team for the U.S.--They have high profile heros, villains, bad boys, and boy scouts, just like every other team. The media covers them, just like every other team. They even display a convenient scorecard with body counts as the points. Instead of circles and X's against a green and white planning field, we get arrows and clip art against a map of the desert. They both fight against another team, not because of some personal beef, but because someone higher up told them to.

that is a very good comparison of you support for the troops.
i understand, since they are your brothes, sisters, friends, mothers, sons etc. i had a cousin in war in bosnia, so i know how it feels to have somebody fighting somewhere. not good, since the news you get are never good.

so it is all a big sports event to you all? just another "super bowl" in bahgdad? i find that a little bit disturbing, since instead of balls people are shooting bullets, and instead of coaches there are generals. nice comparison, but sport and war is not the same.


Originally posted by thelibra
I don't blame the troops for anything. Any mistakes they have made have been at the behest of poor leadership at the top. Between Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush, I'm impressed our troops are still alive, much less, fighting in this hopeless urban war. It's like Vietnam all over again.

i undestand that.
i dont "blame" your troops either, they are just soldiers in the streets in a country they dont know. they dont know exactly why they are here, nor do they know why are they fighting for exactly.
ofcourse the leadership is to blame if the troops are fighting where they shouldnt. but then again, when will your leaders learn this lesson of war? when will it become clear to them? since they "know" their history, it doesnt mean anything to them, since its not making the stocks to rise.

anyway the situation is very serious and without any wishes for peace and order, there will be more and more bloodshed, more people are going to die and nobody even cares about it anymore.
your president donated 10.000 $ for all the tsunami tragedy victims in asia.
michael schumacher donated 4.000.000 $ to this help!
you see the diffrence between sports and politics?

love
peace
&
unity



[edit on 6-1-2005 by Souljah]



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