God loves you, and I believe some of you may have experienced him in your life without knowing it.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

It's not like that man. It's about being a good, loving person. Helping your fellow man. It's not a game where you get an achievement for feeding fifty homeless people.. It's quite simple really. What does the Bible say? You shall know them by their fruits? Well what are the fruits? If I was to look at someone who only held onto faith.. what fruits are visible to me? Living by Christ's example.. (For the most part). Being a good person etc. Works shouldn't sound like a job. There is no good enough. You guys are always saying God knows your heart right? So I imagine a lot of it comes down to intent. By the way you live your life, do you exemplify the attributes of Christ? If so, I would consider those "works". I don't think "works" necessarily means things that are chore like. Also, if anything Christian feels like a chore, you may want to pray for more faith or something. Get that checked out, ya know.

Edit:

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
If you don't believe, you might as well give up. Thinking comes first, then works.

So then belief and living the life are both important. Maybe I misunderstood and there is no contention between faith and faith with works? They obviously go hand in hand for any "true Christian", or whatever label..

a reply to: Shiloh7

What intrigues me is the attitude of the religious about people can't live without God in their lives.

Heres one for ya

Im not religious...

What makes you believe you actually can live with out God in your life...

You don't have a choice... lol

a reply to: Akragon

You believe I enjoy helping other people to one up my friends? 

I don't think you see it that way, but without faith, thats all your efforts amount to. You have to abide in Christ. That requires faith FIRST.

Why do you insist on work without faith? Its illogical.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Akragon

You believe I enjoy helping other people to one up my friends? 

I don't think you see it that way, but without faith, thats all your efforts amount to. You have to abide in Christ. That requires faith FIRST.

Why do you insist on work without faith? Its illogical.

quite simple really...

My personal knowledge of God is not Faith...

I can't prove it to you, and I wouldn't bother to try...

Read what wakeupbeer just said...

a reply to: Dr1Akula

The almighty couldn't?

The God of the Bible has certain intrinsic characteristics to his nature. If his nature is Love and Justice and Mercy his actions are always consistent with whatever his omnibenevolent nature demands of him at the time. If there was another way God would have just done it that way seeing have how he knows more I assume he had his reasons. Thats a trust thing that comes from the relationship I have with Him.

this is not love, this sound like a market deal., we are talking about his own children here
Would you kill your child if he sinned?
True love is to forgive his children and show them the way, not destroying them.
After all he is omnipotent... he could just clap his fingers and say ''let them all be righteous'' End of the Issue

No I wouldn't kill my child if he sinned. My point here was God was telling Abraham that if every person didn't deserve what he was going to do, he wouldn't do it.

Strange thing that his love was forced upon millions for 2000 years with the destruction of the pagan world, the inquisition, the crusades, and the suppression of the dark ages and yet he didn't give a damn about our free will.

Those were actions of men. The abuse of something by people doesn't hold any weight on the true message of that item.

Why didn't he stop his followers for doing such terrible things?
Sexual sinful acts of Sodomites were more important to him.?
And what about the free will of the people at Sodom and Gomorrah?
killing them for what they did isn't against their free will?

Again I am not omniscient but based on his essence I trust he had a sufficient reason for doing so. Like I said he tells Abraham if there are any righteous people in the city then he would spare the whole city for their sake.

Free will simply can't exist in such a dogma, because everything is already known so we cannot change our (already known to god) will.

Yeah, when people say this its never really made much sense to me. If I have seen a movie or a tv show before, I know what the characters will do before they do it or what they say before they say it. That doesn't mean I caused their actions. Just because God knows what you chose because of his position outside of Time doesn't mean he made you choose. Do you see?

That's right if you don't want to live with the God, he forces you to eternal torture and punishment.
That's the nicest think he can do, because he loves you.

My position on hell is not that its torture and bad because God makes it that way. Hell is bad because God is not there.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

A Christian is saved by faith alone. Jesus died for our sins. He bought us. We cannot contribute to that transaction. That is my point.

You have to work to grow, but you cannot be saved on the basis of faith+works, it nullifies faith. First you believe, then you work because you believed.

This is what I mean. To offer your services to God without believing is to spit in His face.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

A Christian is saved by faith alone.

No my friend

A Paulian is saved by faith alone...

Jesus didn't ever say anything like that

IF one believes in him, they do as he asked of them...

Faith without works is not faith

Why call me lord, and do not as I say?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I see what you're saying. And I'm not sure anyone disagrees necessarily. At least, I don't think Arkagon does. Though I may be incorrect and a little fuzzy on Arkagon's stance. I can't really see anyone doing the works, that didn't already have some faith.

Perhaps you are saying mere works aren't good enough. Take me for an example. I can be a good person, and live a life with Christ as my example. But as an Atheist, those good works aren't enough. Is that the kind of thing you're saying? If so, it makes more sense and I could see it fitting into some doctrine.

a reply to: Akragon

You do realize that if Jesus came all that way to tell us to be good to eachother, then He came to tell us something that was already known.

No great revelation there. There was Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism,...so many goody two-shoe prophets before Him.

So what made Jesus so special to you?

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
So what made Jesus so special to you?

What makes him so special to you?

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Akragon

You do realize that if Jesus came all that way to tell us to be good to eachother, then He came to tell us something that was already known.

No great revelation there. There was Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism,...so many goody two-shoe prophets before Him.

So what made Jesus so special to you?

Jesus had the answers...

find anything in the gospels that is wrong, aside from alterations and "hell" which is just a mistake... You can't

and that's only what we know of his life

Not the miracles, not the sacrifice... how he treated everyone

how he explained everything... the gospels are unlike anything you can read anywhere...

even unlike the books that surround them

and if anyone just takes their time with them... I believe its impossible not to be inspired by them

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Yes. The works of someone who is not born again have no value to God. Why? Because he has not believed that Jesus payed for his sins.

You can't work your sins off. Sins are like crumpled paper, the wrinkles can not be smoothed out to perfection again. So we must be born again. Only then can our works mean anything if we continue to abide in Christ.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Akragon
... Hell comes from love and justice. The hard part people have with this is they don't think about the nature of God . Evil or sin doesn't look the same thru his eyes.And Justice is something he must carry out as required by his nature.

How do you know his true nature that others don't?
nothing existed before him, He created his nature, he created his Justice, He created heaven and hell just like he created sin and the human mind. And if he is perfect then his creations should be perfect too.

Why Justice would be above him? and how justified it is to suffer forever for what he made you to be?

Yet so is Mercy. Jesus is the way out of that pickle. Those who are cleansed by him receive mercy and those who chose not to enter a relationship with him receive justice.

How about all the people that never heard the story of God or Jesus in their life? Or the people lived Bc all around the globe?
is it fair for them to suffer eternal punishment?
is that justice?

How about all those poor atheists who need evidence to believe him,
why they should burn in hell for using their logic?
Why he gave logic to man if he is not supposed to use it?
Or why didn't he leave some evidence of him for the man to find?
Was a badly written book full of contradictions and no historical or scientific value the best he could do?
Wouldn't the omnipotent creator of the universe know any better than claim the earth and plants came before the sun and the stars?
(questions continue to infinity)

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Our disagreement comes from where we position works and faith...

He believes faith comes before everything...

I believe Faith and works are equal in Gods eyes...

a reply to: Akragon

Yes the Gospels are perfect, yet you insist on reducing them to a legalistic public service announcement.

If you want to understand the Gospels, you need tge OT. If you ignore the OT, you are making Christ out to be a hypocrite. Jesus quoted the OT dogmatically. His Parables where all OT centered. His prophecies ALL came from OT. He was called the Lamb of God.

Do you see the theme here. Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT.

He came to die for our sins. That is the only way to the Father.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

As I said, God would know the intent. If said person only does works to work off sin.. well God will know their heart wasn't in the right place. It will be a rotting fruit. Or something..

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Sins are like crumpled paper, the wrinkles can not be smoothed out to perfection again

Why would Jesus tell his people to "be perfect" if sins aren't forgivable?

You know the Lords prayer right?

a reply to: Akragon

what law was he talking about?

there was 613... some were abolished... so it couldn't have been those...

hmmmm....

Luke 24
44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Matthew 5:17
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The Law are the the First Five Books of the Bible considered by Jesus to be authored by Moses. As you can see Jesus plainly states what he is talking about in Luke 24 interprets itself! Those laws were not abolished because Jesus took over what those laws did he fulfilled their purpose eternally.

Violence as a solution?

BTW, Jesus was present in the whole Sodom and Gomorrah scene but it takes a keen eye to catch it.

Genesis 19
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

As you can see above the LORD rained fire from the LORD. Its spoken of as if there are two persons in this scene. This is not the only spot this occurs in the Bible.

Hebrews 8
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”
13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

So Jesus didn't actually say this..

Oh but Jesus above in Luke 24 does give those books authority and says that what is in will be fulfilled. So if any of those speak of the inspiration or its preservation of Scripture then in Jesus opinion those things would come to pass. If he thought the lord was unjust in the OT how come he never mentions that?

It's starting to sound like the best way to get into Heaven is to have a good lawyer at those pearly gates.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Jesus was the only one to come as the Lamb of God. Others came telling us to work, Jesus came to give us rest.