To the Socialists.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
Jesus is a socialist! .

According to Christians, Jesus was also perfect. How many of us regular folks are Jesus?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

What? Quit complaining & read a book. Socialism has nothing to do with the things you mentioned. Besides, this is our country too. Why should we sit back & let everyone else allocate how our tax money is spent? I'd rather my tax dollars go towards helping poor Americans get back on their feet than pay for more wars like you vulture capitalists & MIC supporters prefer.

And many American programs are already socialist in nature. So if you really hate socialism & think it "destroyed my country", then opt out of Social Security, Unemployment Insurance, Medicare, and every other major social program that's paid for by tax dollars. And if you're ever in hard times economically, don't you dare apply for welfare, food stamps, Section 8 housing, or any other program that's paid for by taxpayers' money. Because that's the whole point in socialism: the collective contributes to programs collectively so that the programs can help anyone in the collective that needs them. And if you use those socialist programs, you're being a hypocrite.

So no, why don't you go somewhere else & build a little "community" where no one helps each other & everyone is forced to live a hand to mouth existence because there's no concept of sharing. That means you can go build your own roads, collect your own water everyday, and provide your own healthcare too. We'll keep working to improve our country so it'll finally become a civilized country with no poverty, no homelessness, no food insecurity, and universal healthcare for all.

(grumble grumble "processed low sodium and low fat diets"? wtf does that have to do with socialism? really?) And hold up, what rights from the Bill of Rights is socialism supposedly taking away? Well, which ones? It just sounds like you used the word "socialism" to mean "everything I don't like because I don't wanna go look up the word to find out what it actually means". (grumble grumble...)

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: boymonkey74
Jesus is a socialist! .

According to Christians, Jesus was also perfect. How many of us regular folks are Jesus?

So to be "perfect" means to be socialist? Got it! Thanks for the endorsement!

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: boymonkey74
Jesus is a socialist! .

According to Christians, Jesus was also perfect. How many of us regular folks are Jesus?

So to be "perfect" means to be socialist? Got it! Thanks for the endorsement!

How many people are "perfect"?

I totally respect that Americans should have whatever system they want.

But I don't understand why there is so much black and white thinking on this.
I mean, why people go straight into seeing communism happening, with the addition of any social programs?

Is it impossible to imagine a spectrum on which a country can be anywhere on it?
There are many countries that have universal medicine, and yet remain capitalist economies.

I live in a country that does, and I don't experience having less freedom as an individual, I do not experience this split spoken of in the OP, of half the people working, while the other half recieve. The only problems I percieve (and it is taboo to talk about it here) is that foriegners who come from different cultures are more likely to depend upon the system without working.

The cultural values play a huge part in how the people react in such systems. What I call "socialistic cultural values" , is just the ethics and values that are conditioned into the people when young by parents, that are very socially focused - how important it is to not be alone, to be part of a group, to be interdependant, actually puts the whole concept of employment into a different light for them. -It is not done simply for money, or even for success and individual sense of self worth.... it is done because people feel a strong need to be out there, working with others.

The drive is be social. To be unemployed is to drop out of the community and social interaction, and they abhor that idea.

So that is why I often think you are right, the same system in America wouldn't work (at least with the America I know, with my age group, who feel perfectly fine with being alone, even sometimes repulsed by interdependance).
Our age group judges the potential outcome using our mentality as a gauge.


Is it possible that the younger generation is different than us? That they would handle it differently than we would?

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Socialism is the elimination of winners and losers. Socialism, everyone gets a trophy!

Next, socialism will be blamed for the PC crowd, attacks on innocent cake bakers, unisex bathrooms,angry atheists and people that accuse police of racism.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: boymonkey74
Jesus is a socialist! .

According to Christians, Jesus was also perfect. How many of us regular folks are Jesus?

So to be "perfect" means to be socialist? Got it! Thanks for the endorsement!

How many people are "perfect"?

I don't know about your beliefs or non-beliefs, but my beliefs are centered around our attempts to continuously improve ourselves spiritually. In layman's terms, we're supposed to be striving to "perfect" ourselves spiritually. Scriptures & the ways of the Prophets are supposed to be used as examples for us to make these improvements.

So if you believe the Prophet Jesus was perfect & that his policies were socialist, it would make sense for us to strive to better ourselves by following his examples. His socialist examples.

a reply to: DBCowboy

According to sermoncentral.com...

We were created by God to worship Him. That is our purpose. God’s plan is for us to worship Him. But, there is something else we are supposed to do, too. We are supposed to be like Christ.

CHRISTIAN means CHRIST-LIKE

So if Christians are supposed to live their lives as Christ would...

And if Jesus was a socialist...

Then Christians should also aspire to be socialists!

There sure is plenty of evidence that Jesus would have nodded in approval at social safety nets and socialist programs:

Matthew 6:2-4

“Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

1 John 3:17

But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?

Luke 3:11 ESV

And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

Matthew 19:21

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Matthew 6:24

“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."

Luke 6:20-24

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. “Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets. “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.

Matthew 10:8-11

Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. Acquire no gold nor silver nor copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, nor two tunics nor sandals nor a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart.

Luke 6:32-35

“If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. "

And my personal favorite...

Luke 18:22-25 ESV / 8 helpful votes

When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, “How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

So, no it's right there -- over and over in the New Testament. I'm pretty sure Jesus would nod if he visited homeless shelters and soup kitchens, he'd also nod in agreement that everyone should have access to medical care.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Would you compare yourself to Christ?

a reply to: Bluesma

Blame the Cold War. For the entire Cold War, Americans were brainwashed into thinking communism & democracy were opposites (yes democracy, not capitalism). Add to that the absolute paranoia about potential bogeymen & anything different and you have the current arguments.

Most of the people who "hate" socialism have literally never read what it is actually about & can't distinguish it from communism or fascism. They lump most of the economic & political "-isms" together to mean "something sinister or untrustworthy". And our politicians & business leaders make it even worse by constantly spreading lies & BS about socialism.

As an example, that's also why you have people who compare Pres Obama with both Hitler & Stalin lol. They'll literally have posters with Obama having a Hitler mustache & talk about him being a communist, when the actual communists & Nazis were archenemies both militarily & ideologically! As if Pres Obama could unite the extreme left & extreme right wings lol. That's also why you get the stereotypical idiots who run around yelling "Get your government hands off my Medicare!", when Medicare is actually a socialized form of government healthcare.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Preach on brother Mystik!

The Prophets Jesus/Essa & Adam are my 2 favorite Prophets, followed closely by the Prophets Dawood/David, Yahya/John the Baptist, and Solomon. Their stories spark my curiosity the most & resonated with me the most.

I've even studied the main sects collectively labeled "The Essenes" & have adopted some of their practices into my dream utopian world. I've also concluded that if the actual Prophet Jesus/Essa showed up in modern times, he'd be lynched, imprisoned, or shunned at the very least. His actual message & capitalism simply don't mix. And I have no doubts that today's money changers would have him hit by drones & his communities would become "collateral damage".

a reply to: DBCowboy

Yep. Well, I'm certainly not Christ, but I try to live my life in a way similar to his, in the Western world of 2015. I might not agree with my neighbors, but I certainly try and love them as I would want to be loved -- and I turn the other cheek quite often.

I wouldn't even consider myself a "Christian" -- but I have read the Bible and was raised and baptized Presbyterian. If anything, I'm more of an atheist than anything. I find the parts of the Bible that are specifically about Jesus to be pretty great, as they give practical examples of how to live with other people in peace.

You don't have to believe in the Christian/Abrahamic concept of "God" to acknowledge Jesus was onto something. And what he was onto was so utterly simple that people have complicated it, co-opted it, used it and abused it for personal gain. It's really not a hard message to swallow, even for someone who doesn't believe in an "all-knowing, all-powerful God".

It's something people always do -- take something simple and complicate the crap out of it. "It can't just be that simple, it can't be!"...it is, it really really is.

I give to those less fortunate, and I have no qualms about helping those I don't know or will ever meet. I believe that all of humanity deserves to be treated with love, dignity, and respect. These are all Christ-like values to have.

And I think if Christians don't compare themselves to Christ they're not true Christians. That's the whole point of being a Christian, right? To emulate the example Jesus set during his life?

Edit to add: And even if Jesus himself never existed, it doesn't matter. The person the Bible talks about called Jesus is an ideal more than a person, and I think people forget that. We should all want to live in peace and harmony with one another, as out of peace and harmony we all can achieve more of our true potential.

So, even if Jesus is just a fictional character -- what he preached and stood for is what's really important...far more important than if he actually lived or not.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Ah, but America is a secular nation now, sit down and stop prostyletizing where matters of government are concerned! (I know how much it stings to be the catcher for that fastball, because I heard it from plenty during the end of the Bush admin.)

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: GD21D

Well, our last major crash was due to deregulation, and the gov't stepped in to protect the banks, so while there were many corporations to blame, the gov't was encouraging all of it.

Deregulation of finance is, by its very nature, a removal of government influence on the financial sector. You admit that a lack of official oversight caused the crash, but somehow come to a conclusion that the government shouldn't be involved in the economy. Those are some awesome mental gymnastics you're pulling there.

The government stepped in to bail out those financial institutions because they had no choice. Failure to do so may have caused a disastrous economic collapse. Maybe if there were more stringent oversights (government involvement in the economy / regulations) we could've avoided such a mess.

Maybe they should've allowed those institutions to fail causing a virtual worldwide economic apocalypse. However, if they allowed this scenario to unfold who would the populace blame for that disaster? Most of the blame would've fallen upon the governments shoulders and rightfully so.

EDIT TO ADD: I'm not happy about the government bailing out those institutions. Personal feelings aside, I have to recognize the position these people were in. In my opinion, this was the watershed moment where the U.S. government admitted they had lost control. These people who nearly crashed the world economy appear to be above any law or social order. I edited to make my position clear on this subject

The Federal Government is the natural Social Sector of the nation. We all pay them taxes to maintain checks and balances. That is their legitimate function.

We pay taxes to promote our defense and GENERAL WELFARE. Taxation has literally nothing to do with checks and balances.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

The U.S. Constitution

The Private Sector is naturally the Capitalist of component of our nation. Supply and demand fuels the economy. These two components (Social vs Private Sectors) are polar opposites. If they are allowed to make contact, our nation will short circuit

What about our military? There is direct contact between public and private in this arena. Do you think our military should be fully public or fully private? By your position it can only be one or the other. So which one should it be?

a reply to: Metallicus is there anyway you can prove how sublime your God is, or do we just take your word for it? Every religion thinks their God is the best, your probably only Christian, because you were born in America, I'm presuming it wasn't a choice you made where to be born , do you remember making that choice?

Something as simple as infrastructure could br seen as socialist. Just makes things easier all round. No need to get knickers twisted over it or bring in religion.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: DBCowboy

According to sermoncentral.com...

We were created by God to worship Him. That is our purpose. God’s plan is for us to worship Him. But, there is something else we are supposed to do, too. We are supposed to be like Christ.

CHRISTIAN means CHRIST-LIKE

So if Christians are supposed to live their lives as Christ would...

And if Jesus was a socialist...

Then Christians should also aspire to be socialists!

There sure is plenty of evidence that Jesus would have nodded in approval at social safety nets and socialist programs:

Matthew 6:2-4

“Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

1 John 3:17

But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?

Luke 3:11 ESV

And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

Matthew 19:21

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Matthew 6:24

“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."

Luke 6:20-24

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. “Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets. “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.

Matthew 10:8-11

Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. Acquire no gold nor silver nor copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, nor two tunics nor sandals nor a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart.

Luke 6:32-35

“If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. "

And my personal favorite...

Luke 18:22-25 ESV / 8 helpful votes

When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, “How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

So, no it's right there -- over and over in the New Testament. I'm pretty sure Jesus would nod if he visited homeless shelters and soup kitchens, he'd also nod in agreement that everyone should have access to medical care.

Give up on using scripture and quotes to prove your point. Today's salad bar Christian doesn't care and will find one quote to counter all yours and hang their hat on it.

For example, Jesus condemns violence in verse after verse. He's always peace this, that, and the other. Yet your average Christian doesn't like that. They like their guns and vengeance, so they found one verse to counter the hundreds.

Another example is how Jesus condemns the rich no less than 7 times and extols the poor. Yet we have "prosperity gospel".

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
Why don't all you damn socialists in America just get together and make your own super-commune instead of trying to dismantle our Bill of Rights.

Absolute nonsense. Try reading the Constitution. The first three words explain Socialism quite succinctly.

"WE THE PEOPLE"

a reply to: Bluesma

The black and white thinking is programmed into nearly all of us, worldwide.

A given social group will tend to marginalize other social groups by using the worst examples possible to broadly paint the entire group. It allows for easy dismissal and confirmation bias. We see this behavior constantly on sites like this, where both opposing groups define the other in the worst way possible, and neither group is willing to accept moderation.

I feel the internet enables this further, as it is easier to find those extreme outliers in order to marginalize.

Personally, I believe in a system with encompassing social nets that encourage independence and self sufficiency. Something that has yet to really exist. But, because people have been programmed to do so, little value is seen from either side of the discussion. People tend to argue with the archetypes in their own mind rather than put in the effort to dispel them as the limited, regressive functions they are.

In the end, we humans have never learned how to coexist with those that think differently. Instead, we generalize and marginalize in the hopes the "opposition" will convert. Or, at the very least, become silent and irrelevant.

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Ummm..

Because they need to prey on the Non-Socialist for their property?

Why use your own resources when you can harness the "power of government" to rob from everyone else.

Isn't that what big business does? Robs each and every citizen of their resources - uses them and spits them out like chewing gum.

Perspective.