The bible is not

a reply to: Raggedyman

See the law still stands, it's true, for those outside of Christ, that's the whole message of the Gospel

Oh! That's why Christians believe that they're above the law!

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Ever noticed why so many hate the US lately
Because the US are baby killing rapist who slaughter the innocent, from the inception of the USA there has been nothing but bloodshed, even amongst her own

Can you justify the way the US has acted, doubt it but will probably try

Uh.. what?

can God justify the way He acted if He had to.

Well we can take the philosophical route in pondering this question, or the historical one.

Funny how some see violence justified in some circumstances and not in others

Are you making assumptions about me?

a reply to: Ignatian

Do this with an open, humble heart and your conscience will lead you to the church started by Jesus Christ... The Roman Catholic Church.

Catholics claim Jesus started the Church. History shows it was started nearly three and a half centuries after his execution.

Also, Roman's legalized Christianity prior to starting the Church. The implication being that Christianity existed prior to Roman's enacting it as their state religion. There were plenty of Christian communities in the centuries prior to the formation of the Church.

a reply to: Seede

Please name the so called Christians and their affiliation in Christendom which claims that all of the many bibles are every word from God..?

Are you seriously telling us you've never heard a Christian say the entirety of The Bible is the infallible word of god??

Twenty-eight percent of Americans believe the Bible is the actual word of God and that it should be taken literally. This is somewhat below the 38% to 40% seen in the late 1970s, and near the all-time low of 27% reached in 2001 and 2009. But about half of Americans continue to say the Bible is the inspired word of God, not to be taken literally -- meaning a combined 75% believe the Bible is in some way connected to God. About one in five Americans view the Bible in purely secular terms -- as ancient fables, legends, history, and precepts written by man -- which is up from 13% in 1976 Gallup poll.

Also you do not have the original autographs to rationalize your statement or even compare other interpretations.

Do you??

Non religious people seem to know more about the bible than religionists? That is offensive and false.

Here in the USA 70%+ of atheists were once Christian. You seem to be under the impression non-religious people were always so... that's what's false.

a reply to: Raggedyman

You have just proved my point, you have quote mined a few verses to justify a personal view.

Oh good grief.

My "quote mining" clearly demonstrates the point I was making. It's obvious based on those verses what Christ [according to scripture] thinks on that matter. You're ignoring this and accusing me of "quote mining" simply because it disagrees with your personal view.

You clearly don't understand it

Give explanation. Show me.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Ever noticed why so many hate the US lately
Because the US are baby killing rapist who slaughter the innocent, from the inception of the USA there has been nothing but bloodshed, even amongst her own

Can you justify the way the US has acted, doubt it but will probably try

Uh.. what?

can God justify the way He acted if He had to.

Well we can take the philosophical route in pondering this question, or the historical one.

Funny how some see violence justified in some circumstances and not in others

Are you making assumptions about me?

I am not interested in assumptions about you, maybe your ego?

I am pointing out how some can justify their own violence and then get very angry and upset in others violence.

Its a US forum so its easy to show the evils of the US, something you may understand.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: Raggedyman

You have just proved my point, you have quote mined a few verses to justify a personal view.

Oh good grief.

My "quote mining" clearly demonstrates the point I was making. It's obvious based on those verse what Christ [according to scripture] thinks on that matter. You're ignoring this and accusing me of "quote mining" simply because it disagrees with your personal view.

OK LL
Please explain why Christ came and what His death was about

You clearly have an opinion, it is very dear to you and I want to understand

It seems clear to me through Christ's words you quoted, the old laws, tooth for tooth eye for eye still stands. We both accept that is what He meant?
I am not saying you believe it, just that what is said is clear?

a reply to: Raggedyman

You asked who the OT was for. I showed using multiple Biblical verses that Christ clearly says the whole of it [The Law of Moses, The Torah] is to be held until all Biblical events come to fruition. Until the end of times essentially. That's what the verses said. It's all right there. My opinion is irrelevant, I'm showing what it actually says.

"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose." - Matthew 5:17

...and again what is the 'Law of Moses'? It's the Torah.

Re-read the verses I posted. It supports everything I am saying here.

a reply to: Raggedyman

It seems clear to me through Christ's words you quoted, the old laws, tooth for tooth eye for eye still stands. We both accept that is what He meant?

If you agree with that then why are you arguing with me over it and accusing me of negative things?

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: Raggedyman

You asked who the OT was for. I showed using multiple Biblical verses that Christ clearly says the whole of it [The Law of Moses, The Torah] is to be held until all Biblical events come to fruition. Until the end of times essentially. That's what the verses said. It's all right there. My opinion is irrelevant, I'm showing what it actually says.

"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose." - Matthew 5:17

...and again what is the 'Law of Moses'? It's the Torah.

Re-read the verses I posted. It supports everything I am saying here.

Sadly nothing I can say we help you understand the teachings of Christ's capacity to fulfil the law
"I came to accomplish their purpose", meaning Jesus accomplished the law

This may help
www.gci.org...
Probably wont

I see no value in this, thanks

a reply to: Raggedyman

Sigh. If 'accomplish' meant what you think it does then it surely wouldn't be compatible with it not being abolished.

Now read the other verses I posted!

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” Luke 16:17

Not until the end of times does a single letter of the Law of Moses become invalid. That's what scripture shows Christ saying.

I see no value in this, thanks

Okay. Goodbye.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Raggedyman

See the law still stands, it's true, for those outside of Christ, that's the whole message of the Gospel

Oh! That's why Christians believe that they're above the law!

Sadly Windword many do
They are wrong, they may not even be Christians.

Matthew 7:21-23New King James Version (NKJV)

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Just because you go to church, read a bible, pray maybe even a Deacon.
It means nothing if you dont submit to God

In fact Jesus made the laws even more difficult, He raised the bar so to speak

Lets try this

There is the OT laws passed onto Moses by God. The first covenant

THE FIRST COVENANT
If man wants to be pleasing to God, he has to do what God tells him to do. God has had two great covenants with man. God’s first great covenant was with the nation of Israel. God gave the covenant to Moses to give to the people. These first commandments that God gave to Moses are known as the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17). God also gave Moses many other commands and ordinances (See Exodus 21-23). The Israelites agreed to all of these commands and ordinances. "...All that the Lord has said we will do, and be obedient" (Exodus 24:7).
Moses then showed that the covenant had been made between God and the Israelites. "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words" (Exodus 24:8). This covenant is referred to as the first covenant. "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second" (Hebrews 8:6-7). This "first covenant" is better known as the Law of Moses. This covenant (Law of Moses) was given only to the Israelites (Jews).

Then Christ brings in the New Covenant for Christians, those who accept Christ.

THE NEW COVENANT (TESTAMENT)
Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets. When He fulfilled them, they were no longer needed.
After Jesus was raised from the dead, He said: "...These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me" (Luke 24:44). All of the things that had been written about Christ in the law, prophets, and psalms were fulfilled when He died on the cross. In the book of Acts we are told: "Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb" (Acts 13:29).
Christ fulfilled the law of Moses. When He fulfilled the law, He took it out of the way. It was no longer to be obeyed. Christ brought a new law. "And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant...." (Hebrews 9:15).
The law of Christ is now to be obeyed. The New Testament calls the law of Christ the new covenant or the second covenant. This new covenant, the law of Christ, is for ALL people. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).
Christians must live according to the teachings in this new covenant.


So there are two covenants, for those in Christ and those outside.
Two sets of spiritual laws in the world today, this is not dual covenant theology.
Dual covenant theology is something else.
This was an explanation of the laws.


www.ibtministries.org...

Now pertaining to Mathew 5, what you quoted verse 18/19
Go read all Mathew 5, Christ changed it, its a new Covenant

a reply to: Raggedyman

Christ changed it, its a new Covenant

His new covenant didn't include abolishing any, not a single letter, from the Torah. As I demonstrated with scripture.

His new covenant expanded things, it didn't subtract from them.

When He fulfilled them, they were no longer needed.

No longer needed? Sigh..

Then why does he make it so abundantly clear in the verses I posted that not a single letter from the Torah is invalid until 'heaven and earth' pass away? Aka the end of times. What you're saying is not remotely compatible with the verses I posted. Verses containing Christ's alleged words.

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” Luke 16:17

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:18-19

Until all is accomplished. Meaning all foretold Biblical events. Not even before Earth itself perishes. This is referencing the 'Law of Moses'. The Torah. Teach them all and be called great in heaven. Relax on them and be called least in heaven.

Read your verses. He's merely saying he's the Messiah. He's saying he fulfills that. He's not saying in those verses that he has fulfilled/accomplished every foretold Biblical event. Just the ones foretold about the coming Messiah.

It really cannot be more evident that Christ [according to scripture] is saying that his 'new covenant' must adhere completely to OT and then some.

Either way we are going in circles. I'm done addressing this. We are not changing each others interpretation on this it appears.

I was bringing this up initially because you seem to want to distance yourself, and other Christians, from the horrors of the Bible. You want to evade what WakeUpBeer posted for instance.

a reply to: Seede

Which Christians are you referencing? Please name the so called Christians and their affiliation in Christendom which claims that all of the many bibles are every word from God shtick?

Dutch reformed protestant from personal experience... that's just to name one just off the top of my head

And try to quote me correctly if you don't mind... I didn't say all of the many bibles... most denominations pick their own version and consider it Gods word...

The rest of your post is just garbage directed at me and nothing to do with the OP what so ever...

I wasn't talking to you anyways

Its not my fault a good portion of Christianity don't know their own book... that is what I've found in my experience with Christians and it is extensive

Lets just say lately I've had a short fuse when it comes to fanatics of Christianity... for good reason

This is the second time in as many days that you're looking to argue with me... so don't expect a reply if you're not going to state anything relevant to what I happen to say

have a nice day

a reply to: Raggedyman

Sadly I think you are taking to simple a context to what I wrote in the op The rules in the nt are only applicable to Christians Anyone can read it, doesn't mean anyone can understand it

Troll!!! Not an ounce of this comes out as logical or is it properly researched. Your views on Christianity are a product of willful ignorance...

Have a nice evening

originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: Raggedyman

Sadly I think you are taking to simple a context to what I wrote in the op The rules in the nt are only applicable to Christians Anyone can read it, doesn't mean anyone can understand it

Troll!!! Not an ounce of this comes out as logical or is it properly researched. Your views on Christianity are a product of willful ignorance...

Have a nice evening

Sticks and stones
I like the effort you place in explaining yourself

Oh wait, no just the name calling, sadly thats the baseline.

You have a nice evening too, you need to control your anger, it will make your evening nicer

a reply to: Raggedyman

What does any of that have to do with the OT?

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

You are absolutely incorrect, allow me to cite you just one source, of many, to disprove your point.

Ignatius of Antioch (martyred in 110 AD). Yes, his writings are documented. He died only 10 years or so after the apostle, John.

"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is The Catholic Church"

You are wrong about the historicity of The Catholic Church....just think how many other things you may have incorrect about THE church started by Jesus Christ. He started ONE church. The Catholic Church.

It's simply historical that the Catholic Church was formed centuries after Jesus died, and that there were communities calling themselves "christians" prior to it its formation!

The fact you're disputing that is laughable and clearly indicative of someone who preaches knowledge where they have none.

As for you love of Catholicism, and wanting me to be a part of it; I get it and i'm not sold.