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The bible is not

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posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 05:35 AM
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originally posted by: Cinrad

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Raggedyman

You know, IF Christians didn't tell people the bible is meant to be taken literally... or the whole "every word is from God" shtick... secularist wouldn't attempt to read it in such a fashion)

I personally dont know any Christians who say the bible is meant to be taken literally, this is a straw man argument.

As for the "every word is from God" camp, there are some who think that, but when probed a bit deeper will admit they dont meant that literally either.

Just ask them, is this from God?
2 Timothy 4:13 When you come, bring my coat that I left in Troas with Carpus; bring the books too, and especially the ones made of parchment.


I guess the fact no Christians I have met have no hands cut off justifys your argument Cinrad

Thank you, well said




posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 06:38 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman




You know what, the bible is only for Christians, really truly.


What's really true is that the above statement is elitist nonsense.

The Bible is a repetitive and allegorical journey through the human condition. The New Testament is just the "Reader's Digest" condensed version of the same story.

We are all Adam, Eve, Cain, Noah, Moses, Sarah, David, Job, Satan and Jesus and Mary too. They are all pieces to the puzzle that is the spiritual journey through the human condition that we all take when we are born on this planet.

Please enjoy my favorite and overused "go to" video for these kinds of discussions:



edit on 5-11-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 07:30 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

The Bible was compiled by The Catholic Church...for The Catholic Church. And of course, if you know your history (which most do not), all of Christianity was Catholic for the first 1500 years.

All the other 40,000+ other denominations, at their core, base their beliefs on a "protest" of The Catholic Church.

Read and study the church fathers. What did the early Christians practice in the years immediately following Jesus' death? What were their writings? Do this with an open, humble heart and your conscience will lead you to the church started by Jesus Christ... The Roman Catholic Church.

Jesus' church is amazing, it's authentic, it's apostolic and it is holy. The lives of the saints are witness to this. It is only the fallibility and weakness of man that has sullied The Catholic Church. Doesn't matter. The Church will ALWAYS prevail....cuz Jesus promised. And the promise still holds.

The fullness of Truth is contained in The Catholic Church.

Come home to the church that compiled this bible you sophomorically argue about; The Church that gave the world this inspired Word of God. The Catholic Church.

AMDG



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 08:24 AM
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a reply to: Ignatian




And of course, if you know your history (which most do not), all of Christianity was Catholic for the first 1500 years.


Not true. There were many other Christian denominations during the 1st century and beyond. The Catholic Church is notorious for murdering other Christians denominations, i.e. the Nazarene, the Ebionites, the Gnostic, the Cathars, just to name a few.



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 09:24 AM
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a reply to: windword

There were other denominations? Hmmm, never heard of them, and if so, they certainly haven't survived in any meaningful way. Either way, it doesnt matter, catholic means universal...it was THE church...Jesus' church. Again, just a testament to Jesus' promise that His church would always prevail...until the end of time.

It's impossible to look back a millennia and observe facts objectively, while wearing the glasses of modernity. It was a different time, an entirely different world. I think a thousand years from now, future humanity will look back at us, and potentially judge us as barbarians also.



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 09:29 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

I call rubbish on your assertion that the bible--New Testament specifically--is not meant for non-believers.

If that were the case, then no one would ever be converted based on its teachings.

Hell, the bible itself is what drove me away from religion and a belief in a supernatural higher power--does that mean I wasn't a Christian all 15-20 years that I was baptized, attended church "religiously," and actually acted as a deacon during my stint in AIT during my military training?

See, my problem with assertions like yours is that (a) it pretends that you are part of a special class of people, and that goes against the teachings of Jesus, and (b) you seem to assert the false notion that people are either born believers or they're just not, and that the bible wasn't written for them.

I hate to break it to you, but the bible was "written" (more like "compiled") for everyone. Even though I'm an atheist, I still extract some gems from its teachings and morals, but that doesn't mean that I have to believe in the supernatural aspects of it.

You have it all wrong, and I'm quite certain that Jesus would disagree with your claim.



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 09:43 AM
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a reply to: windword

If you have a few hours or a few years to kill, as I mentioned earlier, there's a TON of writings from the earliest Christians. If you truly are searching for Truth, you must investigate these.

A great place to go and see many of these writings, all in one place, is "NewAdvent dot Org. backslash "Fathers of the Church". (Sorry I'm not the linking type on my smartphone.)

Some of these writers you may have never heard of, others are household names. Some of them were students of the actual apostles. They are the actual witnesses. These are correspondence from a time when the bible didn't even exist, ie, first and second century.

A person could probably spend years on that list that pops up, reading all about the first Christians. And anyone who does so, (I did)...and comes out at the end NOT being Catholic? Is beyond me. It's actually not, but I don't want to be judgmental, we all have different paths, we've all been planted in different soil types.

Grace and peace be to you.

AMDG



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 09:48 AM
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a reply to: SlapMonkey

Put another way, the direct teaching straight from the mouth of Jesus, was to spread the gospel to all nations...that means the entire earth.

God created every man, and he desires that every one of them be in heaven with him.



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 09:51 AM
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a reply to: Ignatian

Really? Never heard of the Gnostic? Nag Hammadi? They're still going fairly strong.

Never heard of the Cathars?




posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 10:02 AM
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originally posted by: Ignatian
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Put another way, the direct teaching straight from the mouth of Jesus, was to spread the gospel to all nations...that means the entire earth.

God created every man, and he desires that every one of them be in heaven with him.


Wait, are you telling me that, at the time of Jesus, when Christianity didn't even formally exist, he told his disciples to spread the gospel to non-believers?!

But I thought the gospels were only written for Christians...now I'm all confused.

/sarc



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 10:38 AM
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a reply to: Ignatian

You should take your own advice, especially since you say that are unaware of any other Christian denominations that existed, besides the Holy Roman Catholics.



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 10:46 AM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: BubbaJoe

I'm sorry for the rude comments I made to you. I took things too far.

For what its worth, as a child my family shoved the Bible down my throat too, and for that reason I chose to turn my back on it for a long time, but I eventually realized that I needed the Mind of Christ in my life. It was just presented to me in the wrong way at the wrong time.

I've learned that if you have trouble accepting something today, don't right it off. Just try going back to it later after you've done some more growing. You never know if you might see something you missed before. That goes for anything (not just Bible).


Thank you, though it wasn't necessary and I would like to apologize as well, my comments were over the top. I sometimes let my anger with hypocrits in my own life, that I cannot escape, take on a life of it's own against those that may not deserve it. Again, thank you, and also to calstorm, as it made me go back and think a bit.



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 10:56 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: BubbaJoe


2nd, who or what gives you that idea that you can tell other people what to read?



God bless you, please read it, I encourage you.
I have no intention of stopping you, never even suggested any of the kind.
I would start at the Gospels, they teach who and what Christ is.

Once the Gospels I would encourage you to read Ephesians, Pauls great teaching then to Corinthians.

If you are real serious I would suggest you get some help, its a very hard book to understand, people get mighty confused by it

Never said that people shouldnt read or be encouraged to read it, sorry you think I implied that


I have read it cover to cover many times, OT & NT, was raised Christian, and explored several denominations as a young adult, including fundamental evangelism. After seeing the failings of those who wanted to teach me how to live. I started educating myself, and have at this point decided to leave Christianity behind. I would classify myself as agnostic, as I have no problem with there being a power in the world that is greater than I, but I am not sure which one of the 100's of gods that might be.



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 11:20 AM
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a reply to: Akragon


You know, IF Christians didn't tell people the bible is meant to be taken literally... or the whole "every word is from God" shtick... secularist wouldn't attempt to read it in such a fashion In any case non religious people seem to know more about the bible then religionists do anyways

Which Christians are you referencing? Please name the so called Christians and their affiliation in Christendom which claims that all of the many bibles are every word from God shtick? Humbug. Nothing but spewed crap from your own mindset. In the first place if you have five various interpretations from different eras and cultures of the same manuscripts, you will get five various renditions of the same material regardless of whether it is bible or any other literature. These same bashers (such as yourself) continue to derail the entire religious forums with demeaning posts rather that contribute to discussion of religions. Why bother and waste your time bible bashing?

Also you do not have the original autographs to rationalize your statement or even compare other interpretations. Non religious people seem to know more about the bible than religionists? That is offensive and false. Because a person is bible orientated does not mean that he/she thinks they are better (religionists) than other people. You certainly have not shown that you are qualified to judge these matters of either the bible or people. People of religion should use the religious forums to discuss religion and not to proselytize or demean others. Simply because a person is a secularist does not mean that person is necessarily non religious or that person does not agree with certain religious beliefs.



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 12:50 PM
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a reply to: Ignatian


Text The Bible was compiled by The Catholic Church...for The Catholic Church. And of course, if you know your history (which most do not), all of Christianity was Catholic for the first 1500 years.

I believe you mean that the Roman Conquers who murdered thousands of Jews and stole their concept of Christianity, compiled some letters of the Apostles of Jesus into a book form and called it the NT. The entire foundation of Roman Christianity was built upon deception and murder.

The first Christian ecclesia was that of the synagogue of James the brother of Jesus with Apostle John being the Sagan (next in charge) and Apostle Peter being Ab- Beth Din (supervisor). The entire liturgy was Hebrew and Aramaic with no Latin or Greek allowed. There was no Roman control or influence in the fist Christian synagogue for the first three decades and there was no NT as you now have it. To say otherwise is not true and is ignorant of facts.

Christianity was both decimated in 70 CE and then high jacked by the murderous Roman jackals in 135 CE by Hadrian. What emerged is Roman Christianity and the numerous offshoots you see of Christianity today. To understand Christianity one must study the first 140 years of Common Era history. It does not start with Roman Catholicism.



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 03:05 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

The Jews.

Same God though.

Is it any wonder they didn't believe him to be the Son of their vengeful angry God? Jesus preached love your enemies, his dad just murdered them.



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 04:11 PM
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originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Ignatian

I believe you mean that the Roman Conquers who murdered thousands of Jews and stole their concept of Christianity, compiled some letters of the Apostles of Jesus into a book form and called it the NT. The entire foundation of Roman Christianity was built upon deception and murder.


spoken the truth




... The entire liturgy was Hebrew and Aramaic with no Latin or Greek allowed. There was no Roman control or influence in the fist Christian synagogue for the first three decades and there was no NT as you now have it. To say otherwise is not true and is ignorant of facts.


What you are talking about is not exactly early Christians (in today's meaning) they were messianic Jews hiding in caves and migrating into Egypt, Rome, Greece etc. running away from the Romans who destroyed their land and persecuted them.

They were militant and did violent acts of revolution against Romans (and pagans in general), who send a lot of them Messianic Jew rebels to the lions. (supposed christian persecutions, and martyrs)

They were called messianic because in their secret synagogues they spread the message of a Messiah who has come to free them from Roman tyranny. That's why there are so many stories of different Messiahs at that time. It gave inspiration and morality to them. They were gaining people from other ethnicities also suppressed by Roman Occupation.

But Rome found a solution to this problem by going along with the rebel beliefs and creating a different more spiritual Messiah and promoting pacifistic christians with benefits in the empire through the gospel of Saul, and with the help of Josefus and the Flavians and others.

As you say they originally didn't speak Greek in their first synagogues so they didn't ''followed'' Christ, and they sure weren't pacifists, as they were mainly Jew Rebels expelled from the Ruins of Jerusalem after seeing Titus stealing their treasures from the destroyed temple of Solomon.

There aren't any Hebrew and Aramaic Gospels and the earliest scriptures mentioning the known stories of Jesus are Greek.

Christian is a Greek word (Christ (Χρηστός))

Christ means the chosen one and Jesus (Ιησούς) means Savior

So the very first ''christians'' weren't really christians but Messianic Jews and didn't believe in a God who was born as a human of a virgin, made water into wine, walked on the sea and then crucified and rose up from the dead.
That was first stated from the Roman Christianity, and the first ever Gospels talking about that were Greek, and coincidentally the story was the same one as that of God Dionysous, with influences of the myths of Serapis (Greek version of Osiris), Mythras , Apollo and Sun worshiping.



Christianity was both decimated in 70 CE and then high jacked by the murderous Roman jackals in 135 CE by Hadrian. What emerged is Roman Christianity and the numerous offshoots you see of Christianity today. To understand Christianity one must study the first 140 years of Common Era history. It does not start with Roman Catholicism.


There were no Christians outside Roman Christianity, They were messianic rebel Jews not ''Christians''
and their Messiah was supposed to save them from the Romans ,save Judea and rebuild their temple.
through militant actions and war just like David did in the past.

The pacifistic Messiah who would ''turn the other cheek'' and talked about loving thy neighbor (and other Greek philosophies) was a Roman Invasion in order to counter the revolutionists, and later to control the entire occupied Region through an unquestionable dogma, and avoid future revolutions.
edit on ThuThu, 05 Nov 2015 16:15:49 -06001PMk000000Thursdaypm by Dr1Akula because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 05:22 PM
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originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: Ignatian
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Put another way, the direct teaching straight from the mouth of Jesus, was to spread the gospel to all nations...that means the entire earth.

God created every man, and he desires that every one of them be in heaven with him.


Wait, are you telling me that, at the time of Jesus, when Christianity didn't even formally exist, he told his disciples to spread the gospel to non-believers?!

But I thought the gospels were only written for Christians...now I'm all confused.

/sarc


Sadly I think you are taking to simple a context to what I wrote in the op

The rules in the nt are only applicable to Christians
Anyone can read it, doesn't mean anyone can understand it

I am sure there were many popes that were not Christian, you being a deacon proves nothing to me
It's not about positions you hold in the church, it's about the heart

I am not saying who can and can't read the bible, what I am saying is that many of the secular understandings that people apply to it are incorrect, it is a spiritual book.

Jesus was not a communist, he was not political, Jesus cared about people. He wanted Christians to care about others as well



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 05:30 PM
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originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: Raggedyman

The NT applies to Christians, guess who the OT applies to

To Christians. At least that's what Christ said:

"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. Matthew 5:17

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” Luke 16:17

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law John7:19


The Law of Moses refers primarily to the Torah or first five books of the Hebrew Bible, traditionally believed to be written by Moses. source


Jesus is saying OT stuff applies until all Biblical events come to fruition.


O dear what lunacy ?

You have just proved my point, you have quote mined a few verses to justify a personal view.
You clearly don't understand it but have decided to preach your understanding as truth

See the law still stands, it's true, for those outside of Christ,
that's the whole message of the Gospel



posted on Nov, 5 2015 @ 05:39 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: Raggedyman

The Jews.

Same God though.

Is it any wonder they didn't believe him to be the Son of their vengeful angry God? Jesus preached love your enemies, his dad just murdered them.


Ever noticed why so many hate the US lately
Because the US are baby killing rapist who slaughter the innocent, from the inception of the USA there has been nothing but bloodshed, even amongst her own

Can you justify the way the US has acted, doubt it but will probably try

can God justify the way He acted if He had to.


Funny how some see violence justified in some circumstances and not in others




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